These threads pop up here just about every other day. It's not just Japan, though the media seems fixated on Japan to an unusual extent. Here are some 2023 TFR estimates, source: CIA. Japan: 1.39. Poland: 1.41. Spain: 1.29. South Korea: 1.1. Taiwan: 1.09. China: 1.45. Canada: 1.57. Germany: 1.58. UK: 1.63. Cuba: 1.71. USA: 1.85. Italy: 1.24. This is noteworthy as Italy has been under replacement TFR for nearly 50 yea…
Now do the TFR numbers for the "native" populations and you'll notice something quite interesting - that Japan is actually doing quite well.
Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
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Re: Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
#22I feel like the col is just an excuse for people that don't really want them anyway. Throughout history people have had children with very little material possessions. Talk to someone who went through the great depression about how you don't have enough money etc. to have kids. I think we've just brainwashed ourselves into believing you need to be ultra wealthy to give kids a good childhood. If you literally cannot a…
Back then a child could be contributing positively to the farm in a few years and don't need a lot of training because they want to do the same things people around them are doing. Power tools require a certain level of maturity and judgement, my son was able to pick up a hoe when he was a toddler but our tractor has a weight switch in the seat and we had to make him wear a backpack with weights in it to drive it for the first time. (We even had a small adult woman living at the farm who was too light to trigger the switch.)
(My son didn't make a positive contribution, however, to the family business, a riding academy, until his mid teens. Until then he was always a little resentful of the horses since they were the reason his mom was often not around. Then there was that day he was roughhousing in the barn, a behavior the horses can find a little offputting, and he realized that one horse was taking an interest in his activity and that got him to recognize the social intelligence of horses... Before then we were worried about who would cut the hay when the farmer who does it retired, now we are not.)
Contrast that to the current day where children are an economic cost up to high school graduation if not college, grad school, etc. and whether or not kids go to college they often seem to have an adolescence that extends into the mid 20's.
Back in the day a huge family was your retirement, now we have social security and stocks and bonds (which are still dependent on demographics.)
I've known a few people who have had huge families (10+ kids) in the modern day and they have a very different mindset. It's not as much work and cost once you reach a certain point as the older kids help take care of the younger kids and that gets around the "parents are not gods" problem that are talked about in
https://www.amazon.com/Parent-Effectiveness-Training-Respons...
also there are a lot of hand-me-downs and other synergies. (Although my dad was quite bitter about getting hand-me-downs and sharing the bed with his brothers...)
A lot of the increased "standard of living" is not the things we think are optional (and "consumption") like the iPhone and the vacations, but rather the things that we think are necessary (and even "an investment") such as health care, a house in an expensive neighborhood with a good school district, etc. Remember this Liz Warren classic
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-Middle-Class-Parents-...
Re: Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
#23The knockon effects from this are hard to anticipate, but the known ones are pretty scary. Modern economies don't work when there are more elders to care for than there are working adults. Young men without mates are a direct predictor of civil unrest.
These are major issues that will need to be faced very soon. Population collapse may be the headline of the century if we can't figure out a way to turn it around.
Re: Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
#24I feel like the col is just an excuse for people that don't really want them anyway. Throughout history people have had children with very little material possessions. Talk to someone who went through the great depression about how you don't have enough money etc. to have kids. I think we've just brainwashed ourselves into believing you need to be ultra wealthy to give kids a good childhood. If you literally cannot a…
The only real force to counteract that is cultural/social pressure to raise kids which has also fallen off pretty hard. It might be less obvious to younger people or people with younger parents but having kids was much less of a "decision" for couples not that many decades ago and was much more just an assumed fact. If you didn't, people assumed there was something wrong with you.
Re: Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
#25These threads pop up here just about every other day. It's not just Japan, though the media seems fixated on Japan to an unusual extent. Here are some 2023 TFR estimates, source: CIA. Japan: 1.39. Poland: 1.41. Spain: 1.29. South Korea: 1.1. Taiwan: 1.09. China: 1.45. Canada: 1.57. Germany: 1.58. UK: 1.63. Cuba: 1.71. USA: 1.85. Italy: 1.24. This is noteworthy as Italy has been under replacement TFR for nearly 50 yea…
Now do the TFR numbers for the "native" populations and you'll notice something quite interesting - that Japan is actually doing quite well.
Re: Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
#26Re: Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
#27Historically, women had little choice and was (and still is) under social pressure to have children. In addition to social pressure, they also had a very real economic pressure. Without social security and free health care, the children was a way to ensure that you had someone to look after you when you got sick or old.
It is not surprising to me that as living standards rise, many families are less dependant on children as a safety net. It's also more socially acceptable for a woman to choose her career over a child. The classical role of a mother where she either stayed at home or had a low paying job is gone in modern societies.
The only way governments can stop this trend is to make it more attractive to have children AND a decent career. This will require both changes in financial support and culture (we men have to contribute more at home)
Re: Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
#28People who have been raised as a single child are unlikely to have more than one children, this is simple pattern reproduction.
The cost issue is mostly related to cost of space, with today standards we need one more room per child, not everyone can afford that.
Culturally, the pressure on girls and young women has relaxed tremendously, education and financial freedom have a very measurable effect on natality.
Overall, I don't think this is a bad thing. We can adapt.
Also, population is a huge variable in energy/resources/pollution.
Re: Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
#29These threads pop up here just about every other day. It's not just Japan, though the media seems fixated on Japan to an unusual extent. Here are some 2023 TFR estimates, source: CIA. Japan: 1.39. Poland: 1.41. Spain: 1.29. South Korea: 1.1. Taiwan: 1.09. China: 1.45. Canada: 1.57. Germany: 1.58. UK: 1.63. Cuba: 1.71. USA: 1.85. Italy: 1.24. This is noteworthy as Italy has been under replacement TFR for nearly 50 yea…
Japan is further along in the process I think? Compare [1,2]. Plus, they have cool robots, that gets the people clicking. [3]
I have seen a lot of articles about Italy's 'dollar homes' which is a symptom of the same problem. [4]
Maybe the promise of cool robots or extremely cheap homes or something similarly evocative is necessary to get masses of people to click a boring story about old people and babies.
[1]: https://www.populationpyramid.net/japan/2023/
[2]: https://www.populationpyramid.net/italy/2023/
[3]: https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/01/09/1065135/japan-au...
[4]: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-10-27/italy-...
Re: Third of Japan's 18-year-olds women may never have children: study
#30I feel like the col is just an excuse for people that don't really want them anyway. Throughout history people have had children with very little material possessions. Talk to someone who went through the great depression about how you don't have enough money etc. to have kids. I think we've just brainwashed ourselves into believing you need to be ultra wealthy to give kids a good childhood. If you literally cannot a…
Why would people make up excuses? They simply don't want them. My “excuse” for not having children is the same “excuse” I have for that I'm not a firefighter: I have no interest in it.