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Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#51
post #14

Definitely read https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-... if you haven't yet. Then think about what are the requirements your system needs when it comes to names. Does the app need to know what a user's name is at all or is a username enough? Does it need to distinguish the family part of their name for anything? A thing I think is the most general is to just have a Full Name field (min length 1…

> That Klingon Empire thing was a joke, right?

That made me laugh out loud. It's a great reminder why being conscious of the assumptions you make is an important part of development and one that LLMs can't really do.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#52
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would not do this. For reasons of respect, you may need to address a person by either their first or last name (with a title). Just add a field for the desired form of address, or a nickname. > Addressing a person by their full name can come across as rude Stuffy, Maybe, but rude? Calling people by their first name is rude. Calling people by forms of address which don’t exist is rude.

> Stuffy, Maybe, but rude? Calling people by their first name is rude. Calling people by forms of address which don’t exist is rude. For me and my people, it's perceived as rude (it sounds infantilizing). Just because you don't perceive it that way doesn't mean it is not. > Calling people by their first name is rude Yes, it can be. That's why it's useful to have their last names disambiguated so a proper title can be…

> For me and my people, it's perceived as rude (it sounds infantilizing). Just because you don't perceive it that way doesn't mean it is not.

So what you’re actually saying now is that any inferred form of address may come across as rude, which means you original suggestion is plain incorrect: splitting given name and family name does not allow generating a genetically never rude form of address, because you can’t know whether the user’s culture favours given names, family names, full names, or even none of the above.

And that’s before getting into honorifics and titles.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't do this. In Vietnam names like Nguyen Thi Anh Mai are common. The family name is "Nguyen" is the family name. "Anh Mai" is the "first name". But they should be called "Mai". And reversing the order "Mai Anh Thi Nguyen" is just wrong. And Catholic families in Vietnam often have names "Nguyen Thi To but everybody calls me by my baptismal name of Mary". Or you have a "house name" (i.e. your real name) and an outsi…

Interesting. Indeed, why not just ask “what would you like to be called?” and maybe for administrative(?) purposes ask the full name. Naming is a tar pit and even Westerners might like to be called John when their name is Winstonshire. Let’s not even bother. What is the downside? I’m not seeing it. I see people here recommending to implement logic to handle this fully and I’m not seeing why this would be preferable.

Heck, I just saw on Reddit some guy just discovered his girlfriend's "real name" is "Lawr'ryn" due to dumb parents. She preferred to go by Lauren. And her brother Pur'see went by Percy.

Why, as a system designer, would you force your user to see "Lawy'ryn" every day just because that's on some government document somewhere?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#54
post #32

Indonesia: Single name is common. Therefore only one field filled in should be legal.

It's half funny and sad that for passports one has to repeat their names for both fields or not fill the second field at all (which may be not allowed) or have to make up new name.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#55
post #50

I lived in Asia for many years and worked with people from many places there. It's common to hear "How should I address you?" This is equivalent to the people here suggesting a "nickname" field (good idea). There are people with only one name. Don't make them double it (Ananda Ananda). There are people with several given names. But they may only want to be called by the first, or the first two, or the last. There are…

> It's common to hear "How should I address you?" This is equivalent to the people here suggesting a "nickname" field (good idea).

It’s not uncommon in the west either and it’s weird how much we ignored it in software e.g. “I’m John Q. Smith the Third but call me John” or “May I call you j-dog?”

> There are people who wish to be called by their full name. They may find it jarring to be addressed by just one piece of their name.

There’s also the issue of honorifics which you usually can’t get from names alone, as well as titles (whether professional or nobility) which can be very important to people’s identity.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#56
post #54
post #32

Indonesia: Single name is common. Therefore only one field filled in should be legal.

It's half funny and sad that for passports one has to repeat their names for both fields or not fill the second field at all (which may be not allowed) or have to make up new name.

Yes. and for things like KYC/AML the 100 points test can get very literal about "as written on the passport"

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#57
Ohh boy, as someone who works on a travel booking, service serving customers in Asia, this problem hits hard. I guess the answer depends on how you plan to handle the names once they got submitted.

I happen to be handing that data over to airlines, which has some of the less forgiving, yet fragmented name requirements. If you handle this incorrectly, your customer can't fly, even after they paid for the flight. And for those who say that this doesn't matter as much: It absolutely does. People do get confused by this more frequently than you think. I've seen people losing an entire trip that they saved for, all because of unclear naming requirements.

The way I deal with this is to provide a country and locale specific name fields. You don't have to detect the geolocation or track the user for this, just let them choose whatever locale setting they want, and give them the "sensible" layout. Here are some examples:

- In Vietnam, we use last name then first name.

- In Indonesia, we use first name, then last name, but also give an option to declare that the person doesn't have a last name.

- In Singapore, we use a single field to input the first name and last name.

Even when you've handled the layout convention carefully, the 3rd party you're handing the data to, if one exists, might not give the same care and attention that you do. In my case: some airlines just haven't gotten around the idea that some people simply don't have last names. When a person with a single name wants to fly, airlines want the customer to use the name for both first and last name (e.g. If the person's name is David, then the airline expects "David David"). If you require First Name and Last Name as the input, and don't elaborate on how to fill them, the customer might simply fill the last name with a dot (".") character. The airlines / any other 3rd party won't accept that. For this, I suggest to detail out the ways in which you handle the data and go talk to your providers, if any.

All in all, it's a pretty tough challenge, and the wisdom around this isn't going to fit inside a single HN post. I do commend you for actually thinking about this problem. Good Luck.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#58
post #14

Definitely read https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-... if you haven't yet. Then think about what are the requirements your system needs when it comes to names. Does the app need to know what a user's name is at all or is a username enough? Does it need to distinguish the family part of their name for anything? A thing I think is the most general is to just have a Full Name field (min length 1…

There are 4 main name forms that I often see:

* Full name (John Smith)

* Index name (Smith, John) - mostly for meatspace compatibility.

* Preferred name (John Smith) - used in lists with other people's names

* Personal name (John) - used in direct communications

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#59
post #45
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stuffy, Maybe, but rude? Calling people by their first name is rude. Calling people by forms of address which don’t exist is rude. For me and my people, it's perceived as rude (it sounds infantilizing). Just because you don't perceive it that way doesn't mean it is not. > Calling people by their first name is rude Yes, it can be. That's why it's useful to have their last names disambiguated so a proper title can be…

> For me and my people, it's perceived as rude Are you or your people Asian? Though, even in Asia which names to call a person can differ wildly. I'm not sure how your personal ideas about rudeness are relevant here.

> Are you or your people Asian?

Yes.

> I'm not sure how your personal ideas about rudeness are relevant here.

Names matter.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#60
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stuffy, Maybe, but rude? Calling people by their first name is rude. Calling people by forms of address which don’t exist is rude. For me and my people, it's perceived as rude (it sounds infantilizing). Just because you don't perceive it that way doesn't mean it is not. > Calling people by their first name is rude Yes, it can be. That's why it's useful to have their last names disambiguated so a proper title can be…

> For me and my people, it's perceived as rude (it sounds infantilizing). Just because you don't perceive it that way doesn't mean it is not. So what you’re actually saying now is that any inferred form of address may come across as rude, which means you original suggestion is plain incorrect: splitting given name and family name does not allow generating a genetically never rude form of address, because you can’t kn…

> So what you’re actually saying now is that any inferred form of address may come across as rude, which means you original suggestion is plain incorrect: splitting given name and family name does not allow generating a genetically never rude form of address, because you can’t know whether the user’s culture favours given names, family names, full names, or even none of the above.

No, that is not it.

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