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How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

nippon.com

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Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#141

Post by nonethewiser »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #120
nonethewiser wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I care for my children because they need it and are mine, not because they are my preferred hobby.

I don't doubt that, but speaking as someone building a non profit in stealth that covers the cost of permanent birth control for folks who can't get it completely covered by health insurance (or who have to rely on medical tourism to obtain it), I've spoken to many folks who adamantly don't want children and not because they are lazy or don't want a challenge. Kids are a choice, not a mandatory checkbox. That is the…

You misunderstand my point.

> Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not.

Thats not why people have kids. Even people that have kids (and dont regret it) would like to spend their time on other things if they could. People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#142

Post by seneca »

throwawaysleep wrote: post #106
WanderPanda wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

Was it ever considered such a great joy or just another of life's many tasks?

The idea that having children is a joyless burden is very modern, and very specific to certain subcultures. "Great joy" is the default position.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#143

Post by pessimizer »

gnicholas wrote: post #131
mustafa_pasi wrote: post #108

Are there any highly developed cultures with a high birth rate? US Mormons and US Christians maybe?

Israel comes to mind.

The part of Israel that has a high birthrate is militantly not modern. To the point of not working in order to study religion all day, and blurring out women in photographs.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#144

Post by sho_hn »

nonethewiser wrote: post #141
toomuchtodo wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that, but speaking as someone building a non profit in stealth that covers the cost of permanent birth control for folks who can't get it completely covered by health insurance (or who have to rely on medical tourism to obtain it), I've spoken to many folks who adamantly don't want children and not because they are lazy or don't want a challenge. Kids are a choice, not a mandatory checkbox. That is the…

You misunderstand my point. > Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Thats not why people have kids. Even people that have kids (and dont regret it) would like to spend their time on other things if they could. People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time.

> People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time.

I'm not sure I agree, at least universally. How do you decide for children without thinking about the changes it'll make to your daily life and whether that's something you want to be doing?

Of course there's plenty of people who have children because they feel it's expected of them, or economic necessity, or other external reasons.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#145

Post by nonethewiser »

sho_hn wrote: post #144
nonethewiser wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand my point. > Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Thats not why people have kids. Even people that have kids (and dont regret it) would like to spend their time on other things if they could. People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time.

> People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time. I'm not sure I agree, at least universally. How do you decide for children without thinking about the changes it'll make to your daily life and whether that's something you want to be doing? Of course there's plenty of people who have children because they feel it's expected of them, or economic necessity, or other external reasons.

Its called sacrifice. Enduring inconvenience or discomfort in favor of some greater cause.

That’s not to say everyone should have kids or feel this way. But it’s ridiculous to suggest some people just like video games, or traveling, and others like missing work deadlines to care for their sick child (or everything else that goes with raising kids).

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#146

Post by famahar »

sho_hn wrote: post #137
famahar wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raising a child is a whole lifestyle change. It's a long term commitment and a whole shift in almost every priority in your life. Viewing child care as some challenge that only non-lazy people do is quite a stretch.

You have to see it in context: I'm wondering what leads specifically people who feel that generally speaking they could afford to have children and direction change if they wanted to, to prefer one set of priorities and experiences over another. Keep in mind I'm responded to a comment that speculated on which choices lead to a "more fulfilling" life, which means it's a decision couched in a certain amount of safety a…

You're right, framing the discussion around a "more fulfilling" life can limit other important aspects. People are highly complex. Ultimately I think the choice to raise a child comes down to an alignment with a huge set values and circumstances which are the result of countless factors.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#147

Post by kredd »

nonethewiser wrote: post #136
kredd wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Maybe for you, but the value proposition isn’t there for me. There’s no indication that the world is willing to fix its global problems (climate change, housing problems and etc.), why would I also subscribe my child to this “fun”? It is weird to write that sentence, as I am generally a fairly optimistic person. But…

I have never seen this sort of extreme existential pessimism in real life (not online). Altering major life decisions like having children based on fears of a negative future. Im not sure if its just more commonly expressed online or if its more common in other place (Europe maybe?) or different age groups (teens or young adults?) but if I asserted this to people locally they would think im nuts. Another possibility…

Not sure what to say, but do you have friends in their 20s? It’s not exact doomerism, but more of a “if I am struggling, why should I burden someone that I will love even more”.

And again, for a lot of people life can be more fulfilling without having a child as well. The general economy want these people to have children for its own benefit, not for the benefit of the parents.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#148

Post by somenameforme »

orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

> I see no reason why women would ever want children. What's society providing them that they need to make this sacrifice?

What do you think your future holds? If we are entirely realistic, I think in 50-60 years, and perhaps much sooner, we'll almost certainly be dead. On our way out everyone and everything we've ever known will also be dying. Best friends we'd thought would last to the end will fade and disappear long before.

And that's just the start. Because well before the end our bodies will begin to fail, with our minds often enough not far behind. And, without family, a very likely scenario is that we simply end up alone. In Japan there are so many people dying completely alone, often unnoticed until a neighbor or service worker smells the rot, that they have a term for it: kodokushi - lonely deaths. [1] South Korea has followed suit with godoksa. By raising a family we not only get to fulfill our ultimate responsibility in the continuance of the species, but also you in many ways provide some continuance of ourselves. And as you age we will always have family, such that we will never truly be alone in this world.

It seems to me that the masses of people not having children today is vaguely familiar to the masses of people taking out 6 figure loans to pursue random degrees, unlikely to benefit their ability to provide a living for themselves. They certainly know what everybody is saying about such decisions, but somehow think it won't apply to them. And in any case the consequences are so far removed from the present that it can sometimes be difficult to take them seriously, but that doesn't mean those consequences don't exist.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodokushi

------------

Edit: As some odd coincidence, this just popped up on the frontpage of HN. It feels relevant enough to link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37327432

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#149

Post by gnicholas »

pessimizer wrote: post #143
gnicholas wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel comes to mind.

The part of Israel that has a high birthrate is militantly not modern. To the point of not working in order to study religion all day, and blurring out women in photographs.

I’m no expert, but I was under the impression that the fertility rate there is relatively high, pretty much across the board, compared to most other developed countries. Is it only high in the most orthodox communities?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#150

Post by kredd »

nonethewiser wrote: post #145
sho_hn wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time. I'm not sure I agree, at least universally. How do you decide for children without thinking about the changes it'll make to your daily life and whether that's something you want to be doing? Of course there's plenty of people who have children because they feel it's expected of them, or economic necessity, or other external reasons.

Its called sacrifice. Enduring inconvenience or discomfort in favor of some greater cause. That’s not to say everyone should have kids or feel this way. But it’s ridiculous to suggest some people just like video games, or traveling, and others like missing work deadlines to care for their sick child (or everything else that goes with raising kids).

Sacrifice is a choice in this scenario. I think, I agree with the OP above, that one chooses to not to make that sacrifice (e.g. lifestyle change). Just the value of the sacrifice has been getting lower and lower every year for younger people.
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