How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s • Hacker News Board

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#111

Post by jwells89 » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

sho_hn wrote: post #93

kredd wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed completely, but I’ll add another point. About 50% of my friends are university+ educated women of different ethnicities, but all living in first world countries. We’re also all in our late 20s or 30s, so it’s becoming a “now or never” kind of dilemma for some of them. We used to make “oh it’s expensive!” excuse until we started making decent money. Now that excuse doesn’t work, but there has been a significant…

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…

I see it being more about risk than anything.

Couples take on all sorts of challenging hobbies and endeavors on a regular basis, some requiring years to build up and master. The difference is that with most of those things, they're not walking a tightrope and putting the wellbeing of another person in the balance by doing so. Many couples would be putting themselves at much higher risk of financial ruin by having kids and making sure they're properly cared for.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#112

Post by pyuser583 » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

markus_zhang wrote: post #107

pyuser583 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China also had, and still has, a child limit policy that violates human rights. Not to mention the genocide currently in progress. Genocides don’t help fertility, I’m guessing.

The limit is basically gone now so at least that is a non issue.

It’s still there. The limit is currently four (with exceptions).

I’m pretty sure the mere existence of a limit sends a message.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#113

Post by throwawaysleep » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

tomtheelder wrote: post #80

thegreenswede wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I want kids but I don't want them until I can afford stable housing. And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker, then I understand why most people are delaying kids or not having them at all. If most young people are still living with parents or roommates well into their 30's, then it's not a mystery why my generation isn't having kids. Nothing to do with 'life is so good kids aren't desirable anymore'.

Then why does the birth rate steadily go down as you move up the income curve? My experience is that my wealthy adult peer group just has almost no interest in having children while my high school friends, many struggling badly financially, all already have families.

Higher standards. The person you are replying to wants stable housing on some of the most desirable land in the world. The conditions for upper middle class people to have kids are exceedingly high by any standard.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#114

Post by sho_hn » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #100

sho_hn wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Isn't this just FOMO? Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Is it not better to regret not having kids than to have them and regret having them? https://www.today.com/health/child-free-adults-are-happy-par... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

> Isn't this just FOMO?

I'd say plenty of people do things because they can envision it might be great, not because they feel FOMO. Do you never look forward to things without FOMO being the cause?

It also depends on how much of a reasonable idea you have about what you'd be getting yourself into, e.g. from participating in siblings raising children or other opportunities.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#115

Post by nonethewiser » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #100

sho_hn wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Isn't this just FOMO? Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Is it not better to regret not having kids than to have them and regret having them? https://www.today.com/health/child-free-adults-are-happy-par... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

I care for my children because they need it and are mine, not because they are my preferred hobby.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#116

Post by kredd » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:52 PM UTC

sho_hn wrote: post #93

kredd wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed completely, but I’ll add another point. About 50% of my friends are university+ educated women of different ethnicities, but all living in first world countries. We’re also all in our late 20s or 30s, so it’s becoming a “now or never” kind of dilemma for some of them. We used to make “oh it’s expensive!” excuse until we started making decent money. Now that excuse doesn’t work, but there has been a significant…

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against?

Maybe for you, but the value proposition isn’t there for me. There’s no indication that the world is willing to fix its global problems (climate change, housing problems and etc.), why would I also subscribe my child to this “fun”? It is weird to write that sentence, as I am generally a fairly optimistic person. But “let me sacrifice a ton, for a decent chance of misery of myself and my offspring” doesn’t sound right to me.

I was about to write a paragraph how my friends also like challenging activities, except having a child. But I couldn’t make my brain to compare “having a child” to a “challenging” activity. At the end, it’s one of the things, where you either want it or not. If you want people to want it, get the older generations to make a sacrifice for us and somehow fix the current socio-economic problems that’s discouraging the women.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#117

Post by sho_hn » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

jwells89 wrote: post #111

sho_hn wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or mon…

I see it being more about risk than anything. Couples take on all sorts of challenging hobbies and endeavors on a regular basis, some requiring years to build up and master. The difference is that with most of those things, they're not walking a tightrope and putting the wellbeing of another person in the balance by doing so. Many couples would be putting themselves at much higher risk of financial ruin by having kid…

I agree with this. There's sadly too many places where society & co don't help mitigate and minimize the risk, either, and I absolutely respect people who feel the risk to themselves or the children is undue.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#118

Post by pyuser583 » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

throwawaysleep wrote: post #109

pyuser583 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China also had, and still has, a child limit policy that violates human rights. Not to mention the genocide currently in progress. Genocides don’t help fertility, I’m guessing.

China now has a 3 kid cap. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57303592 Their birthrate is 1. The cap is not a barrier anymore.

Decades of vicious persecution and propaganda don’t just vanish.

Even in America, there was a massive effort to convince people to have fewer kids, and prominent people still blindly recite the talking points - with zero correction by fact-checkers.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#119

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

m_fayer wrote: post #82

WanderPanda wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

How did we end up at a point where creating life turns midlife into a grueling thankless slog?

It doesn't.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#120

Post by toomuchtodo » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

nonethewiser wrote: post #115

toomuchtodo wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Isn't this just FOMO? Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Is it not better to regret not having kids than to have them and regret having them? https://www.today.com/health/child-free-adults-are-happy-par... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

I care for my children because they need it and are mine, not because they are my preferred hobby.

I don't doubt that, but speaking as someone building a non profit in stealth that covers the cost of permanent birth control for folks who can't get it completely covered by health insurance (or who have to rely on medical tourism to obtain it), I've spoken to many folks who adamantly don't want children and not because they are lazy or don't want a challenge.

Kids are a choice, not a mandatory checkbox. That is the thesis.