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How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

nippon.com

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Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#61

Post by remarkEon »

orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

>and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent.

I don't think this is quite right, and your second paragraph is kind of alluding to the underlying issue. I think it's more that there isn't a pathway for women to drop out of the workforce permanently and revert to a single-income household. A lot of women in my wife's peer group want to do this, but can't make the finances work. Of course, they end up having to pay for child care anyway and maybe it comes out in the wash. Regardless, maybe some kind of UBI can be help here for women with children who simply don't want to go back to work.

Aside: you might be commenting specifically on Asian work culture, not sure, but the "give up freedom" thing I don't believe to be unique in that regard.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#62

Post by paulcole »

munk-a wrote: post #39
thegreenswede wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I want kids but I don't want them until I can afford stable housing. And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker, then I understand why most people are delaying kids or not having them at all. If most young people are still living with parents or roommates well into their 30's, then it's not a mystery why my generation isn't having kids. Nothing to do with 'life is so good kids aren't desirable anymore'.

Yea, pretty much this. I'm half of a two person couple well into the upper middle class - we live in a one bedroom condo that costs more than half a million dollars... kids are not a realistic financial decision.

You and I are probably in similar situations (I rent a 1-bedroom apartment in an upscale-ish area) and you probably earn more than me but I live very comfortably.

I've personally never had any interest in having kids. Whatever it is that makes kids appealing, I've never had it.

But I think I agree with you and I don't understand why I think I agree with you.

Kids do seem like a crazy financial decision today. But if we wanted to, we could for sure have a kid and get by. Plenty of people have plenty of kids on a lot less money.

Is it that we want to maintain our standard of living more than people did in the past? Plenty of poor people have plenty of kids in 1 bedroom apartments. Do we just demand more comfort today? Are we just more picky? Are kids just not worth what they used to be?

I don't think any of these answers are bad. I just think it's interesting.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#64

Post by munk-a »

WanderPanda wrote: post #56
orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

We've allowed everything in life to be assigned a monetary value and it turns out that kids have a very low RoI

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#65

Post by chaostheory »

woodruffw wrote: post #40
chaostheory wrote: post #2

The only thing they left out in the article is what the effect of pollutants like BPA have on the birthrate. Currently, BPA, an artificial estrogen, is nearly everywhere from food, receipts, and now even clothing. PFAS, BPS, and a host of other pollutants are almost as widespread in many countries that experienced any decent amount of industrialization

Is there some evidence that these chemicals are more present in countries with lower birthrates? Plastic, plastic byproducts, etc. are some of the cheapest and most readily available materials in the world, including in developing countries. The much stronger predictor here seems to be HDI and industrial maturity.

Nearly country in the world is now affected by low birthrates. Most developing countries aren’t spared by lower trending birthrates. The exceptions lie in Central Africa. The prevalence of these hormone disrupters aren’t limited to developed countries.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#66

Post by pc86 »

markus_zhang wrote: post #27
pc86 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And ah yes that global bastion of unfettered capitalism: China. All your "in the US" examples aren't capitalism, they're barely even free markets (and several aren't at all). High regulations, high barriers to entry, massive government subsidies for established players and massive government regulation preventing new players from entering the market. Capitalism has its downsides for sure, but pointing out education a…

You can't just point the flavors you don't like and say Ah that's not Capitalism.

I didn't think I was. There are plenty of markets in the US that are pretty capitalist[ic?]. But education, health care, those examples are all so far from that.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#67

Post by dfxm12 »

WanderPanda wrote: post #56
orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

It looks like for the issues listed above, corporate capitalism, or more specific in this chase, chaebol capitalism is the main driver.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#69

Post by davidktr »

To add another source, the Atlantic had a piece on birthrates in South Korea last March: https://archive.li/Fm93M

Quoting from the article:

> There are a lot of reasons people decide not to have a baby. Young Koreans cite as obstacles the high cost of housing in greater Seoul (home to roughly half the country’s 52 million citizens), the expense of raising a child in a hypercompetitive academic culture, and grueling workplace norms that are inhospitable to family life, especially for women, who are still expected to do the bulk of housework and child care. But these explanations miss a more basic dynamic: the deterioration in relations between women and men—what the Korean media call a “gender war.”

Unfortunately, there seems to be little commonality in how men and women see the issue. Hard to imagine any solution at all.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#70

Post by orochimaaru »

Yhippa wrote: post #52
orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

Not sure where you are but it feels that this is exactly what it's like in America. I am not sure why nobody really cares and I suspect by the time people try to do something about it, it won't be too late, but it's going to take a Herculean effort to fix. Mindset and structural support.

It is. The only difference is that the US (and Canada) are way more welcoming of immigrants than South Korea or Japan. That's basically what's keeping them competitive. I'm also pretty sure that high birth rate from illegal south american immigrants keeps US population going. The legal immigrants have children but at a subsistence level, generally <= 2.
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