How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s • Hacker News Board

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#31

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 5:57 PM UTC

hungryforcodes wrote: post #13

HelloMcFly wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> western style feminist politics Care to explain precisely what you mean in this context? Because it's hard not to see this as a dog-whistle for "why can't women just be happy with the caretaker role?" but perhaps you mean something more benign.

I'm just reporting what I've been told by Koreans I've met. The problem doesn't seem to exist in older generations. Happy if Koreans could chime in.

This sounds like Korean men who can’t get a date. Given they’re blaming “Western-style feminism,” I see why.

Marriage rates in Korea are declining, as they are everywhere. But there is no evidence of increases in single men, other than in the uneducated and low-income group [1].

[1] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/poor-men-in-s-ko...

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#32

Post by thegreenswede » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 5:57 PM UTC

seydor wrote: post #25

Life may be too good for kids anymore The article has curiously little about what koreans actually want, vs what the author thinks is stopping them (despite their burning desire) to have kids. After all, as the article says the birthrate went way down a long time ago thus it's likely that people would know by now what is stopping them from having more kids

No. I want kids but I don't want them until I can afford stable housing. And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker, then I understand why most people are delaying kids or not having them at all. If most young people are still living with parents or roommates well into their 30's, then it's not a mystery why my generation isn't having kids. Nothing to do with 'life is so good kids aren't desirable anymore'.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#33

Post by woodruffw » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 5:58 PM UTC

jamiek88 wrote: post #28

throwawaysleep wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This explanation may make sense if people were complaining about an inability to have kids despite wanting them. But physical infertility is not alleged here.

Those hormones could very well affect the desire to have kids too. Our brains and hormones are poorly understood.

"We don't understand it" is the absence of an argument, not positive evidence that these chemicals make people not want to have children.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#34

Post by nervousvarun » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 5:58 PM UTC

throwawaysleep wrote: post #14

chaostheory wrote: post #2

The only thing they left out in the article is what the effect of pollutants like BPA have on the birthrate. Currently, BPA, an artificial estrogen, is nearly everywhere from food, receipts, and now even clothing. PFAS, BPS, and a host of other pollutants are almost as widespread in many countries that experienced any decent amount of industrialization

This explanation may make sense if people were complaining about an inability to have kids despite wanting them. But physical infertility is not alleged here.

True, but most developed nations have easy access to IVF and/or other conception medical services.

Another question might be...what % of couples can get pregnant without artificial means? And how is that changing over time?

For perspective there are estimates out there that IVF will be involved in 10% of pregnancies in the near future. Some of that is it getting better, cheaper, and more accessible obviously...but we are talking about something (pregnancy) that's technically "free".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8722744/#:~:tex....

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#35

Post by spacemadness » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 5:58 PM UTC

hungryforcodes wrote: post #21

infecto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am by no means an expert but I would classify this as misogyny that is rampant in a lot of asian countries. Especially for a number of the developing countries, including Korea, women are still very much seen as property.

I did mention that a conflictual approach to relationships-- as opposed to a collaborative one -- created problems for both men and women in this age group to find partnerships.

You very clearly stated this conflict was caused by “feminist politics.”

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#36

Post by yoyoyo1122 » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 5:58 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #24

I see little emphasis in this article on real estate or rents. Sure, the issues they raise are contributors, but housing issues are foundational for many of the other problems they spend a lot of time on in the article. SK is more land-constrained than Japan. We're seeing family formation being negatively impacted in many areas of the world now due to high real estate prices. It's particularly acute in SK: https://ww…

It's in the middle of the article:

> Another economic factor in the falling birthrate is the rising price of real estate and a resulting increase in unmarried or late-marrying people. The tradition in Korea is for men to prepare a family home before marrying, and the rising cost of housing in recent years has thereby triggered a decline in marriage rates. The Bank of Korea recently enacted emergency interest rate hikes that brought down the price of condominiums, but the interest rate on mortgages has risen, keeping home ownership a distant dream for many.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#37

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 5:59 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #24

I see little emphasis in this article on real estate or rents. Sure, the issues they raise are contributors, but housing issues are foundational for many of the other problems they spend a lot of time on in the article. SK is more land-constrained than Japan. We're seeing family formation being negatively impacted in many areas of the world now due to high real estate prices. It's particularly acute in SK: https://ww…

[deleted]

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#38

Post by xwdv » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

jamiek88 wrote: post #28

throwawaysleep wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This explanation may make sense if people were complaining about an inability to have kids despite wanting them. But physical infertility is not alleged here.

Those hormones could very well affect the desire to have kids too. Our brains and hormones are poorly understood.

If you must have a child hormones will have little to do with it. Reproduction can be made into a very routine robotic like activity, like going to the gym.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#39

Post by munk-a » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

thegreenswede wrote: post #32

seydor wrote: post #25

Life may be too good for kids anymore The article has curiously little about what koreans actually want, vs what the author thinks is stopping them (despite their burning desire) to have kids. After all, as the article says the birthrate went way down a long time ago thus it's likely that people would know by now what is stopping them from having more kids

No. I want kids but I don't want them until I can afford stable housing. And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker, then I understand why most people are delaying kids or not having them at all. If most young people are still living with parents or roommates well into their 30's, then it's not a mystery why my generation isn't having kids. Nothing to do with 'life is so good kids aren't desirable anymore'.

Yea, pretty much this. I'm half of a two person couple well into the upper middle class - we live in a one bedroom condo that costs more than half a million dollars... kids are not a realistic financial decision.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#40

Post by woodruffw » Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #2

The only thing they left out in the article is what the effect of pollutants like BPA have on the birthrate. Currently, BPA, an artificial estrogen, is nearly everywhere from food, receipts, and now even clothing. PFAS, BPS, and a host of other pollutants are almost as widespread in many countries that experienced any decent amount of industrialization

Is there some evidence that these chemicals are more present in countries with lower birthrates?

Plastic, plastic byproducts, etc. are some of the cheapest and most readily available materials in the world, including in developing countries. The much stronger predictor here seems to be HDI and industrial maturity.