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ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

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Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#711

> To put it even more simply: When a person uses a room in a house to engage in illegal or just terrible activity, we don’t call on the electric company to cut off the light and heat to the entire house, or the post office to stop delivering mail. We know that this will backfire in the long run. Instead, we go after the bad guys themselves and hold them accountable. I like this analogy it hits it home. It really shou…

This analogy doesn't hold up, if you were using a room in a house for illegal activity and you didn't come out, they would absolutely cut your power to come after you.

With a warrant, maybe. But would the power company unilaterally cut you because you, say had a neon sign that said ${something you might find on 4chan} on the front lawn?

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#712
post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue there is that as best I can tell, kiwifarms the site doesn't break any laws. It officially discourages actual harassment of the people it insults. Individual users may harass people but as far as I could tell from my previous skim they do not organize this harassment in the open. And requiring service providers to monitor private communications for organisation of harassment seems Orwellian to me. (Intuitio…

If you read up on the Kiwifarms Wikipedia page [0] it sounds like someone needs to go to jail. Until this moment I'd never believed that sending someone a pizza would qualify as an act of violence - but now I can see it. If the site doesn't break laws then there is no reason to ban it. But there are criminals using that site and they should be caught. Banning the site is just dodging the real problem. [0] https://en.…

>>you read up on the Kiwifarms

You should read up on what actually happened, one a unbiased source. Which si not Wikipedia.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article, the EFF explicitly calls out the government for failing to enforce existing laws which would have shut down Kiwifarms >That’s what must happen here. The cops and the courts should be working to protect the victims of KF and go after the perpetrators with every legal tool at their disposal. We should be giving them the resources and societal mandate to do so. Solid enforcement of existing laws is som…

The issue there is that as best I can tell, kiwifarms the site doesn't break any laws. It officially discourages actual harassment of the people it insults. Individual users may harass people but as far as I could tell from my previous skim they do not organize this harassment in the open. And requiring service providers to monitor private communications for organisation of harassment seems Orwellian to me. (Intuitio…

> Intuition pump: imagine the postal service opening every letter to check to see if someone's organising a letter writing campaign sending abuse to George Washington

Just on this specific point: this is not a particularly weird scenario at all. There are very strong rules about what you can and cannot send in the mail, and these rules are enforced. The most obvious example is the Comstock laws, which regulate "obscene and immoral materials" sent through the mail (including things like information about birth control). They're from the 1800s, but several are still on the books. It's not a strange concept at all in American law to regulate what can and cannot be sent through the mail.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#714
post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, right now there's a odd vogue to think that a healthy democracy does things like ban political parties (currently an active debate regarding the AfD in Germany), or embrace indigenous apartheid movements (NZ, Australia), or to cede sovereignty to unaccountable transnational elites that promise to protect you from the ravages of political misinformation (the EU as a whole.) I don't think these notions will stand…

I see no problems with banning Nazi and Communist parties after what they did to my country.

Who gets to decide who is a Nazi or a Communist? Maybe one day you'll be declared a Nazi for disagreeing with something the government in power decrees or even because some social group disapproves of your lifestyle. Definitions are powerful and recently, quite flexible to achieve desired goals of those who make themselves the arbiters of definition.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall reading the other day about Germany making deadnaming a crime..

From an outsider's perspective (NZ) Germany's democracy looks a lot healthier than the US's.

I guess that would depends on how you define "democracy" and what you believe a healthy government looks like.

I prefer a messy, publicly conflicting government to a smooth running authoritarian police state any day

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#716
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment you’re replying to lists several examples already, like the use of the Spamhaus DROP list. https://www.spamhaus.org/drop/

What tier-1 provider is irresponsible enough to use this?

Spamhaus is huge. A listed IP will see email bounce rates exceeding 50%, easily. Most large North American ISPs use at least one Spamhaus list. Tier-1s don’t generally advertise which blocklists they use, but the 2010-ish “Stophaus” DDoS attacks went after a number of Tier-1 operators.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#717
post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't exactly understand what you mean by feminism (GC/radfem or the average suffrage feminism). I think that the dissonance in the feminism movement versus their counterparts is that there's a different level of expectations in the topics that they as a movement want to discuss. When women (or LGBTQA+) are talking about these issues, they're looking for allies, they're looking for compassion and comfort on their…

I hate to tell you, but attributing all feminist campaigning to some kind of misplaced compassion or lack of rationality is pretty misogynist. We got plenty of things that need and have benefitted from advocacy. Feminists and queer people are not a monolith, and they're allowed to care about the things they care about specifically - just like everyone else. Fascists are responsible for being fascists, not foreigners…

> I hate to tell you, but attributing all feminist campaigning to some kind of misplaced compassion or lack of rationality is pretty misogynist.

That's exactly what I am talking about. Attributing all feminist campaigning to anything specific is impossible (and therefore an excessive statement to make a point). It's far beyond human knowability by any means anyways. And implying misogynist behavior to the statements that I wrote pretty much is the start of an irrational - but also not an empathic - discussion.

Maybe the whole problem is because our language in physical form relies on intonation, stressing and nuances that the text form cannot represent, I don't know, I'm no linguist.

Most of the shitstorms I've observed in my social bubbles could have been solved easily if there were some form of empathic notations to the text that was written. Even just being able to express the emotional state while writing it (mad/sad/angry/frustrated/calm/etc) could have helped a lot to resolve those issues.

I think emojis tried to fill this gap initially, but it seemingly failed at it due to the differences of our generations online and their associations with them. Let's say boomer, gen-y and gen-z discussing a topic for argument's sake.

Gen-Z kind of evolved on the web, and they've learned to communicate their feelings differently. Other generations basically think that they're spamming emojis all the time, but gen-z kind of realized that it's their way of communicating empathic needs and expressions, which would be otherwise missing.

All I'm trying to say is that there seems to be an empathic/emotional gap in our language which leads to a lot of misinterpretation on the web; which in physical form never exceeds into the same absurdities because people seem to be able to express their empathic needs much easier then. And that's me saying this as an autist with huge problems reading (in both senses of the word) people's implied intonations, which is kind of absurd to begin with.

The issue with the populist journalism that you mentioned is that there's not laws in place to force them to recorrect their statements in the same populistic way they made advertisements for the previous incorrect statements. Usually you find the corrections in font size 8 on the last page - if there is even any correction. They should be forced to publish it in the same way, on the same media channels, as the initial incorrect article about that topic - by default, as an implemented law. This alone would kill a lot of shares of how misinformation, which appeals to angry emotions, works.

But then political campaigns wouldn't work either, so sadly there's no incentive for legislatives to do this.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. Authoritarian censors found an exploit. They couldn't use the government to clamp down on civil liberties because of the pesky constitution, so they invaded the administrative layer of big tech. It's not the engineers who built the web and these companies with Silicon Valley ideals. They were never intended to be used this way and are secretly horrified. > play moral police at the moment Moral fashion p…

In an interesting way it is also an exploitable facet of small government. If the private sector is susceptible to moral policing then then government downsizing implies a larger attack surface.

Are you suggesting that government (big or small) is immune to moral policing and that it's confined to the private sector? Any centralized system is subject to attack, the bigger the better.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#719
post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

blame the WEF and 16 UN STG

> Promote peaceful and inclusive societies for sustainable development, provide access to justice for all and build effective, accountable and inclusive institutions at all levels oh no how _terrible_

As written by the ministry of truth.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#720
post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read up on the Kiwifarms Wikipedia page [0] it sounds like someone needs to go to jail. Until this moment I'd never believed that sending someone a pizza would qualify as an act of violence - but now I can see it. If the site doesn't break laws then there is no reason to ban it. But there are criminals using that site and they should be caught. Banning the site is just dodging the real problem. [0] https://en.…

>>you read up on the Kiwifarms You should read up on what actually happened, one a unbiased source. Which si not Wikipedia.

Specifically, wikipedia is not an unbiased source on any issue that is of particular concern to the terminally online. Anything to do with US politics or culture war is going to be heavily distorted due to the nature of the beast (its something people care a lot about, there were strong founder effects and there was a purity spiral).

The sources that are allowed/disallowed and their respective biases (e.g. what they publish or don't say) are a big factor.

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