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Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

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Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#41

Post by Kretinsky »

bsder wrote: post #15
mschuster91 wrote: post #2

While I agree that landlords are vampires, that here is wrong: > But there is a stack of research a mile high that shows that the number one thing we need is a lot more housing supply There are millions of units vacant everywhere, be it the US [1] or Germany [2]. The last thing the world needs is more housing construction, especially with the insane CO2 footprint of anything involving concrete. The problem is that ru…

> The problem is that rural areas ("flyover states") have been left to rot The problem is that rural areas don't pay their way. Rural areas only exist at the charity of the cities funding them. If you want rural areas to thrive, you need to figure out how to make them economically viable . That means you need local production to be more cost effective than global production. A good start would be having universal hea…

This is a chicken and egg problem. Reduce public services in rural areas, get population outflow, reduce public services even more.

You can stop the vicious circle by increasing the services back to make it attractive and at the same time densify rural cities to make them less costly to cater to.

Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#42

Post by pjc50 »

giantg2 wrote: post #37
pjc50 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One residential property per person"? Or the more reasonable one owned + max one let out? ( Some holiday lets are entirely legit and necessary for some local economies, but the politics of that is very complicated and site-specific.)

That won't fix anything. Many rentals are apartment buildings and are built/owned by large companies. You would effectively make the situation worse because individuals wouldn't be able to build high density housing if they're only allowed one unit. Edit: why disagree?

Controversial opinion, but corporate landlords tend to be better than individual landlords because it's impersonal and it's harder to hide. They also have different tax treatment.

> individuals wouldn't be able to build high density housing

Who exactly has (a) enough money to build an apartment block and (b) not enough to put it in a corporate wrapper? (Admittedly the wrapper problem is a serious issue for any kind of rationing!)

Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#43

Post by giantg2 »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #6
mschuster91 wrote: post #2

While I agree that landlords are vampires, that here is wrong: > But there is a stack of research a mile high that shows that the number one thing we need is a lot more housing supply There are millions of units vacant everywhere, be it the US [1] or Germany [2]. The last thing the world needs is more housing construction, especially with the insane CO2 footprint of anything involving concrete. The problem is that ru…

>The last thing the world needs is more housing construction, especially with the insane CO2 footprint of anything involving concrete. That self imposed limit is exactly what keeps prices high. Every city has some run down areas that serve no purpose but are wasted space and could be turned into housing. Also, as some others already said it, living in urban areas reduces your footprint versus living far away in the c…

Cities also have vacant office space. It's likely more economical and greener to convert the existing building vs building new construction in the "wasted space".

I like the idea of what you describe for remote work. I'm not sure how effective that would be in the US. It seems many people want very specific amenities or locations. Or like one friend, they wouldn't move back just because of "all the druggies". I think at best, it would just slow the population decline in those areas. It would be better if the old rust belt cities had business and industry return physically. Not everyone can be a knowledge worker on a laptop - there needs to be some physical jobs too.

Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#44

Post by bsder »

Kretinsky wrote: post #41
bsder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that rural areas ("flyover states") have been left to rot The problem is that rural areas don't pay their way. Rural areas only exist at the charity of the cities funding them. If you want rural areas to thrive, you need to figure out how to make them economically viable . That means you need local production to be more cost effective than global production. A good start would be having universal hea…

This is a chicken and egg problem. Reduce public services in rural areas, get population outflow, reduce public services even more. You can stop the vicious circle by increasing the services back to make it attractive and at the same time densify rural cities to make them less costly to cater to.

> at the same time densify rural cities

This does not work. People live in rural areas because they don't want density. That is the whole point. (Alternatively, it might be because they are too poor to move. However, densifying/gentrifying an area does not fix that--it just boots people to a different poor rural area.)

You are trying to make rural areas viable by making them a city. You might as well just improve the situation in an already existing city.

Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#45

Post by FirmwareBurner »

LeanderK wrote: post #34
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody said all rural areas are attractive places to live. And yes, part of the problem nobody wants to go back isn't jus the "vibe" and lack of "hip culture, art scene and hipster cafes", but that basic infrastructure like good schools, teachers, hospitals, doctors offices and specialists, have been left to rot and they also moved out of the city(the younger generation) or just retired and died along with the town,…

this is not true across the bank. Of course if you're really deep into depopulated rural areas then there is really a lack of basic social services. But it's not that there's only high-density cities and deserted landscapes, there are still rural areas with schools and doctors. Rural areas that are doing comparatively well, somewhat maintain their population. Also, many cities with a lot of population growth also str…

>In some rural areas there's a really conservative, tight-knit mindset. A deep resentment for somebody different and a very specific world-view really dominating the area. This is not about hipster-cafes, but about some basic progress in society some parts just try to not be part of.

Boomers are like that almost everywhere. They vehemently reject the current status of realty and want only to live in their own version.

I told some Bavarian boomers a while ago that housing is unaffordable and they were insisting that's nonsense that we're all lazy that back then they could buy a house if they worked hard and saved, so I pulled out a ballpen and the beer coaster on the table, pulled out my phone with the property price numbers, the average wage numbers and the bank loan calculators to prove it to them with the napkin math on the beer coaster, and they were like "huh, I didn't know it was that bad, it expected it would be better today".

They just live in their own bubble refusing to do the basic research on how the world currently is, but instead try to strongarm everyone into their warped reality without caring that they might be wrong.

Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#46

Post by pjc50 »

solatic wrote: post #35
nelsonic wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. What regulation would you propose?

Single-payer. One government agency is permitted to purchase construction of additional units, and also manage the long-term rental (pricing set at auction) of those units in a rent-to-own model, where "own" means the right to live in that unit rent-free until you die, at which point control reverts to the government agency, combined with laws that forbid owning/renting multiple residences. Add in some allowances lik…

This is sort of how social housing used to work in the UK ("council houses"), but with additional restrictions on private ownership that are politically very hard.

> right to live in that unit rent-free until you die

This is very bad for labour mobility. It's a hukou system for retirees.

Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#47

Post by TheLoafOfBread »

andyferris wrote: post #40
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #13

This story is being repeated across countries and cities. It really is high time there is some serious regulation around home ownership, especially as an investment vehicle. I would even say this is an existential issue for our current civilizational model - the unaffordability of housing is contributing to demographic decline globally.

If the issue is the supply of rental (i.e. investment) properties is too low, do we want to encourage or discourage investment homes?

progressive property tax which will increase with amount of owned properties.

Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#48

Post by ajsnigrutin »

raziel2p wrote: post #21
nelsonic wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. What regulation would you propose?

A simple one would be progressive tax on house ownership. For each house/apartment/whatever you own, you pay N% more tax on it than the previous one.

But the higher taxes are then transoformed into higher rents, while at the same time, you still need more housing units in many areas.

Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#49

Post by pjc50 »

Kretinsky wrote: post #41
bsder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that rural areas ("flyover states") have been left to rot The problem is that rural areas don't pay their way. Rural areas only exist at the charity of the cities funding them. If you want rural areas to thrive, you need to figure out how to make them economically viable . That means you need local production to be more cost effective than global production. A good start would be having universal hea…

This is a chicken and egg problem. Reduce public services in rural areas, get population outflow, reduce public services even more. You can stop the vicious circle by increasing the services back to make it attractive and at the same time densify rural cities to make them less costly to cater to.

> rural cities

This is an oxymoron.

Re: Housing Is a Labor Issue: Land owners are taking all the wage gains

#50

Post by RobotToaster »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #6
mschuster91 wrote: post #2

While I agree that landlords are vampires, that here is wrong: > But there is a stack of research a mile high that shows that the number one thing we need is a lot more housing supply There are millions of units vacant everywhere, be it the US [1] or Germany [2]. The last thing the world needs is more housing construction, especially with the insane CO2 footprint of anything involving concrete. The problem is that ru…

>The last thing the world needs is more housing construction, especially with the insane CO2 footprint of anything involving concrete. That self imposed limit is exactly what keeps prices high. Every city has some run down areas that serve no purpose but are wasted space and could be turned into housing. Also, as some others already said it, living in urban areas reduces your footprint versus living far away in the c…

> It doesn't help anyone if those vacant units are not where the jobs and education is

Why not move the jobs and education?

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