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ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

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Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#501
post #220

I would encourage those interested to read up on the individual behind the ISP harassment campaign and what might actually be motivating them to do it. That it's being done to protect trans people is highly disingenuous.

[flagged]

> The claim that Kiwi Farms is dedicated to driving transpeople to suicide was started by [specific people]

Nice strawman. There are a huge number of different people who have independently arrived at the conclusion that KF exists to bully queer and autistic people, often to suicide, because it's a consistent pattern; the idea that this concept can be attributed to just one or a handful of people is wilfully misleading. Anyone who's been online long enough in the right circles will eventually know of multiple people who have been targets of the site, and it's obvious what those targets have in common.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#502
post #451

I think it might be impossible to avoid having to make moral judgements. You might wish to believe that you free society can exist without any morality but I don't think it can really. So what is "ok" and what is "not ok" - would you censor the NAZI party in the 1930s or do you think that letting theim air their views fully would convince Germans not to accept them? 10s of millions of lives depend on your choice.

Any moral judgement that ignores the direct practical implications of that judgement is deeply immoral. You cant have meant well when you could have known better but didnt want to.

>So what is "ok" and what is "not ok" - would you censor the NAZI party in the 1930s or do you think that letting theim air their views fully would convince Germans not to accept them? 10s of millions of lives depend on your choice.

The rise to power of the NSDAP was aided by being able to frame themselves as the lesser evil in comparison to the KPD representing the totalitarian soviet system. Censoring stuff and combating people creates reactions, once you go down the path of opinion control you end up with the choice between totalitarian systems that are dysfunctional by nature and represent the worst and most extreme versions of a tribalistic conflict. Having a common enemy becomes an end in itself and at that point anyone will do.

This is not an abstract risk, its visible across many western democracies right now. The naive assumption that intention alone will be enough and allows you ignore the consequences, might become the death of the current form of democracies. Its arguably how we got to the point where there are far right parties across Europe in and about to become governments. With at the same time a historic high in population and opinion control measures.

In the end, during the most horrific phases of humanity that were intentionally created there is always a desperate demand for two things. The ability to challenge genocidal narratives (See Romeo Dalaires pleas to just be allowed to broadcast) and having as many rifles as you can get once that fails (See the incredible risk people (including children) took when smuggling weapons into Jewish ghettos. I dont see how attempts to make the first harder, let alone impossible, are anything but evil. Especially with a blatant disregard for the risks this entails. Humanity payed the price for this insight already multiple times over.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#503

What I'd like to figure out is how there are still so many Nazis despite readily-available facts that Naziism is racist delusions? And how are countries like Germany still doing kinda okay despite making it illegal to do Nazi stuff? Isn't it a slippery slope directly from banning Naziism direct to North Korean-style authoritarianism?

> What I'd like to figure out is how there are still so many Nazis There are always going to be people who are fearful and ignorant and looking for a convenient external something to blame their problems on. There are also the people who are raised with those views and others who feel excluded and find a place to belong with a group of "outsiders". I don't think we can ever get rid of racist ideologies. We've evolved…

Pretty much sums it up. Also of note is that Germany already had and still has laws against numerous forms of speech, most notably anything that could threaten the public order, which you could mold into a justification to basically stop any speech. The only thing preventing that isn't a law, it is the overall political culture. But with polarization rising, it can quickly become more serious.

Most of these laws stems from a time where monarchy wanted to suppress unsanctioned speech.

The Nazis made a lot of political capital because people wanted them banned and censored. Of course that was just political play and they set new standards for suppression of information and propaganda, but that came after they got into power.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

>Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an extremely charitable description of what KiwiFarms is. What's your list of things to block that are higher up the list?

- Corporations that obtain your data and then sell it or abuse it even if said abuse is permitted in some fine print. - Countries that commit crimes against humanity but those should be fully physically blockaded rather than just blocking their internet. - ISP's and ISP resellers that aid and abet watering holes, phishing sites, scams, etc... and probably also entire countries that refuse to lift a finger to stop sca…

Good, let's further isolate the population from independent sources of information and leave them completely in the dark about what's happening both in the outside world, and in their own countries. I often wonder who and for what purpose posts comments such as this one because they play so well towards what these dictators want. Or is it just ignorance coming from those who has never lived in a dictatorship.

I will also let you know that many neutral countries receive our internet through some of those you imply by your statement. You would cut significant chunks of mostly poor population off the internet. We have some connectivity through other countries, but it will be back to the dial-up days for at least 5-10 years until more fiber is laid out.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#506

> Cloudflare is an often brought up example And Cloudflare are nearly as well behaved as they could possibly be. The simple fact of them being everywhere makes them a major target of government pressure to censor. This is purely an end run around the constitution, not the desire of companies to control speech. > It feels like private companies are de facto writing the laws about what's allowed online and in society r…

> Zuckerberg would only censor speech about Facebook and himself personally.

Facebook is the mother of all censorship. Nudity, speech, political views just to name the top most. They only want people to post fluffy stuff on their website.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#507
post #451

I think it might be impossible to avoid having to make moral judgements. You might wish to believe that you free society can exist without any morality but I don't think it can really. So what is "ok" and what is "not ok" - would you censor the NAZI party in the 1930s or do you think that letting theim air their views fully would convince Germans not to accept them? 10s of millions of lives depend on your choice.

Any moral judgement that ignores the direct practical implications of that judgement is deeply immoral. You cant have meant well when you could have known better but didnt want to. >So what is "ok" and what is "not ok" - would you censor the NAZI party in the 1930s or do you think that letting theim air their views fully would convince Germans not to accept them? 10s of millions of lives depend on your choice. The ri…

I don't think the Germans now accept your reasoning and your specific story doesn't really provide support for it.

Countries have laws againt hate speech and libel because we realise that these are evil forms of "free speech".

We have laws about every action that we can do because those actions can harm other people and speech is another action which can harm others.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#508
post #68
post #15

Are there any lawsuits pending against KiwiFarms? If not, why not?

Not as far as I know. I think any criminal action will be extremely hard, at least under US law, as they haven't really done anything outright illegal. There are all sorts of claims about "KiwiFarms has done this or that" (same with 4chan), but often there's no direct connection to KiwiFarms or 4chan, and some claims seem to just made up of whole cloth. A civil might have a higher chance of succeeding, but I suspect…

An increasing number of jurisdictions are passing laws against doxing so the site you're defending will be harder and harder to defend.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think attacking and maligning someone else while ignoring the substance of their comment is what HN should promote in their comments.

where are they attacking and maligning the user? they're clearly stating important background information for readers

Sometimes it's a big no-no on HN to comment or point out background information or context and sometimes it's not.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#510
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

And that's where problems arise. Most of us are comfortable oppressing people we disagree with. The reality is that you can't silence voices you don't like without making yourself vulnerable to the same treatment. We either value the freedom to express ourselves within the limits of the law or we don't. As soon as there are more people who think like you do, none of us are safe and it just becomes a system that silen…

It's not the opinion I disagree with, it's the actions and policy changes that result from it, which turn into genocide. If a website has people talking politics, that's fine; if a website has doxxing and organizing lynchings, that's not fine. The problem is that one thing (opinions) can lead to the other (genocide) if not kept in check.
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