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Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

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Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#91

Post by reinhardt »

jballanc wrote: post #65
byrneseyeview wrote: post #36

A general question: when someone says something offensive, the apology is often "We're sorry: we thought this was funny, but obviously it wasn't, so we've changed it." This seems to get universally condemned, and lots of people argue that it's wrong to say "I'm sorry you're offended." But what are the alternatives? I suppose they could have said that they were deliberately sexist and hoped to hurt people's feelings,…

There is a difference between "We thought it was funny. We were wrong." and "We are sorry you were offended." The former makes the person in bad taste the responsible party. The later makes the "offended" person the responsible party. When you say "We are sorry you were offended..." many people will read in to that "...but if it weren't for you being offended there would be nothing wrong with this." A simple choice o…

"...but if it weren't for you being offended there would be nothing wrong with this."

Is this statement even controversial? The only reason someone issues an apology (honest or not) is because one or more others were offended. If nobody is offended, by definition there is nothing wrong with it.

Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#92

Post by cjbprime »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #61
cjbprime wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is to realize why it was offensive instead of just that people got offended in some abstract sense that is unrelated to anything you can comprehend. For bonus points, further show enough empathy that you realize that what you said now offends you , too, culminating in some kind of "Damn, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that" apology.

And what if it doesn't offend them? Just because it offends you doesn't mean it should condemn them. Men like women. Men are, speaking factually, the extreme majority in the tech industry. Don't be shocked if your values don't match those of others.

I don't think I understand your point, but to be clear:

I'm a man, and I like women. My like of women extends to not wanting them to be treated like beer-servants and told that they aren't welcome as equals at a coding event, because it would make me feel awful if someone did those things to me.

Empathy allows you to try to work out how something might feel from someone else's perspective, and is what should be used when trying to work out how to apologize for inadvertent offense.

Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#93

Post by lysol »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #36

A general question: when someone says something offensive, the apology is often "We're sorry: we thought this was funny, but obviously it wasn't, so we've changed it." This seems to get universally condemned, and lots of people argue that it's wrong to say "I'm sorry you're offended." But what are the alternatives? I suppose they could have said that they were deliberately sexist and hoped to hurt people's feelings,…

They could demonstrate that they understand why this was offensive instead of the obtuse, head-patting response. "We now understand that _____ is offensive to _____ because of ____. In turn, it has _____ effects on our industry. Sorry!" It's not really that hard if you have a capacity for basic cognitive reasoning.

What my main point is, a person put up a bottled apology that follows all the rules, but it doesn't correct the behavior. It's a fix for the symptom, not the underlying problem.

Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#94

Post by electromagnetic »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #36

A general question: when someone says something offensive, the apology is often "We're sorry: we thought this was funny, but obviously it wasn't, so we've changed it." This seems to get universally condemned, and lots of people argue that it's wrong to say "I'm sorry you're offended." But what are the alternatives? I suppose they could have said that they were deliberately sexist and hoped to hurt people's feelings,…

The reason why people aren't satisfied with that kind of apology is because it isn't an apology it's a "Oh we're being forced to say this, but we still think we're right and its funny and you're just a douche for complaining."

The whole point is that they're so totally out of touch with the real world that they don't even get that they demeaned women and worse they don't even understand how. It's not even that it was a joke, it's that they were actually selling it as a perk along with massages to "take a break and unwind" and by their apparent hiring policy for their waitress staff, I'm guessing the masseuses are likely <25 year old Asian women.

Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#95

Post by tptacek »

javadyan wrote: post #81
waterlesscloud wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it was a poor attempt at humor, but it was an attempt at sexist humor.

So? It's not hurting anyone. You know, there is a difference between an ad for a geek event that no one cares about and a woman not getting a job because she's a woman. These are not the same things.

Disagree.

Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#96

Post by shawn-butler »

I'm curious about how exactly the people who are complaining about the potential discriminatory hiring of female staff for this event and the sexist way it was described feel about several (most of the successful?) sxswi parties promoted and paid for by startups that hired local UT coeds to attend?

Shouldn't the same level of outrage apply? If not, why not?

Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#97

Post by electromagnetic »

rickmb wrote: post #74
byrneseyeview wrote: post #36

A general question: when someone says something offensive, the apology is often "We're sorry: we thought this was funny, but obviously it wasn't, so we've changed it." This seems to get universally condemned, and lots of people argue that it's wrong to say "I'm sorry you're offended." But what are the alternatives? I suppose they could have said that they were deliberately sexist and hoped to hurt people's feelings,…

Those are weasel words, non-apologies that only confirm the notion that the people who wrote this are actually sexist a-holes. It's an underhanded way of blaming the people that are offended rather than genuinely apologizing for doing something offensive. "We realize this was wrong and offensive, and we are very sorry" would have been sufficient. No groveling needed. Instead, they chose to blame the offended parties…

Look at when comedians say something offensive. They either realise they went too far, or they stand by their joke. I've never personally heard a situation where a comedian causes mass offence and weaselly apologizes saying he's sorry but wishes his audience would grow up. Because it doesn't happen, because they're in the business of tastefully offending people.

The problem is that douches like the guys running Boston API Jam have no social connection with women that they can't even understand why normal people are offended by this.

Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#98

Post by npc »

reinhardt wrote: post #91
jballanc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between "We thought it was funny. We were wrong." and "We are sorry you were offended." The former makes the person in bad taste the responsible party. The later makes the "offended" person the responsible party. When you say "We are sorry you were offended..." many people will read in to that "...but if it weren't for you being offended there would be nothing wrong with this." A simple choice o…

"...but if it weren't for you being offended there would be nothing wrong with this." Is this statement even controversial? The only reason someone issues an apology (honest or not) is because one or more others were offended. If nobody is offended, by definition there is nothing wrong with it.

So if I say something shockingly racist, but the only people around to hear it are my shockingly racist buddies, then it's totally OK because no-one is offended?

Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#99

Post by marshray »

javadyan wrote: post #58
mcherm wrote: post #9

If everyone responded like Heroku did (immediately, firmly, and without apologies) when they saw such sexist behavior it would improve our industry. Please do so whenever you get the chance, and props to the Heroku team!

This was not sexism. It was a poor attempt at humour.

I don't see any evidence that they were just trying to be humorous. "Women" is listed right after "booze". If they were joking by advertising "women" as "perks", then they should have understood that most people are not going to find that particularly funny.

They advertised "friendly female event staff to get you a beer". Any reasonable person would believe that they were intending to follow through on that.

Re: Heroku Pulls Sponsorship After Boston API Jam Publishes Sexist Eventbrite

#100

Post by toomuchtodo »

cjbprime wrote: post #92
toomuchtodo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if it doesn't offend them? Just because it offends you doesn't mean it should condemn them. Men like women. Men are, speaking factually, the extreme majority in the tech industry. Don't be shocked if your values don't match those of others.

I don't think I understand your point, but to be clear: I'm a man, and I like women. My like of women extends to not wanting them to be treated like beer-servants and told that they aren't welcome as equals at a coding event, because it would make me feel awful if someone did those things to me. Empathy allows you to try to work out how something might feel from someone else's perspective, and is what should be used…

This is my problem with this issue in general.

They are not beer servants. They are workers being paid to do a job.Its an event where women are paid to bring you a beverage. Will you rally against Friday's, Hooter's, and Buffalo Wild Wings next?

I have empathy; I also understand that you don't have to work at a job bringing beer to coders if you don't want to.

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