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ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

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Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#81
> Cloudflare is an often brought up example

And Cloudflare are nearly as well behaved as they could possibly be. The simple fact of them being everywhere makes them a major target of government pressure to censor. This is purely an end run around the constitution, not the desire of companies to control speech.

> It feels like private companies are de facto writing the laws about what's allowed online and in society right now, and that it's almost become a loophole for censoring free speech on a whim.

And I don't think that the companies have any particular desire to censor. Zuckerberg would only censor speech about Facebook and himself personally. Dorsey seemed entirely blindsided by the pressures from the administration, three-letter agencies, and individual Congressmen based on the Twitter Files, and pushed back plenty. The three-letter agencies just placed dozens and dozens of people (who decided to quit the CIA, NSA, and FBI in their 30s for some reason and change careers) in the executive suites of every social network.

It's being done in the open, and they're simply daring us to see corruption there. Hell, they've become conspiracy and foreign propaganda scientists, and they can detect the influence of the evil Russian and Chinese enemies of the state even in people who have no connections to Russians or Chinese people. It's their Russian and Chinese ideas that need to be eradicated, and all good communications channels and payments processors should be happy to help unless they are also secretly Russian.

Wow did they go from coordinating banning Alex Jones to banning the last President in record time. Let's see how long it takes them to get from Kiwi Farms to The Grayzone or Rumble, or any newspaper that contradicts a government press release.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#82
post #61

The irony of course is a large segment of the people who are against net neutrality are exactly the people[1] who would have their online speech censored then complain about it. [1] https://theintercept.com/2018/08/06/net-neutrality-repeal-re...

It's easy to have a principled stance against both net neutrality and private online censorship. Note that the EFF statement is not calling for legislation to stop HE's behavior.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#83
post #52
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech has never existed. We've always been pushing and pulling against what's acceptable.

Absolutely. Causing a stampede or crush being the obvious example. I do get baffled by the absolutionist statements about the freedom of speech. Speech is a side-channel into violence. My country has a censor's office, for example. Some 'speech' is literally illegal to possess. Government ministers aren't free to speak state secrets in public. It's not legal to disclose the names of persons with judicial name suppres…

It's part of the American creation myth that's drilled into our heads as children.

The Alien and Sedition Act was passed in 1798 which made it illegal to critique the government. Eugene Debs went to prison for advocating for draft dodging in World War 1.

Part of is a lot of folks either can't or wont see the difference between "free speech" and "consequences for your actions".

As Americans, we've never had more free speech than we have today. Most of our history is filled with censorship from media to actual human beings being arrested for wearing the wrong clothes. Of course, a lot of those free speech absolutist cheer censorship laws when they are targeted at LGBTQ individuals.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#84
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Causing a stampede or crush being the obvious example. I do get baffled by the absolutionist statements about the freedom of speech. Speech is a side-channel into violence. My country has a censor's office, for example. Some 'speech' is literally illegal to possess. Government ministers aren't free to speak state secrets in public. It's not legal to disclose the names of persons with judicial name suppres…

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Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#85
post #14

The ACLU will absolutely oppose this. If not for the reason they stand to make a lot of money suing ISPs for "not doing enough" to stop the big-ole-meanies online. I see ISPs blocking "mean speech" to "protect people" as another symptom of the enshittification of the internet. I legitimately cannot understand problems in this arena because you can just...walk away from your computer. Or turn off the website. Or hey,…

you were on the Internet before it merged with reality and the two became one (in the minds of the people). you still perceive the Internet as being this discrete thing, separate from normal meatspace reality, because that's how it was, for a time, in the now-distant past.

smartphones and modern social media bulldozed over our glorious cyber-libertarian future and brought millions of people, all completely unacclimated to the Web and its social customs, online, together, in the name of social progress or something (but, not-so-secretly, it was just to target advertisements and content to people more efficiently), and this is the sad end result—corporate censorship everywhere, with normal people even going out of their way to espouse gratitude for said censorship, complete with all manner of stock memery to disparage anyone who disagrees ("freeze peach", "only the government can censor—if it's not the government, it's not censorship", etc.).

pour one out for the Internet of Yore if you must, but those days are long since over—there really isn't any way to put the genie back in the bottle anymore.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#86
post #3

> But just because there’s a serious problem doesn’t mean that every response is a good one. This is a fantastic line, one that I'm tucking away for future use.

The EFF's response is not a good one, either. The previous sentence is: "We fully support criminal and civil liability for those who abuse and harass others." That's not sufficient. These are extremely slow mechanisms, when they work at all. The harassed individual can suffer for years, and the EFF isn't rushing out to aid them. As their post says, "law enforcement and legislators have failed". The Internet is differ…

The faster you make a mechanism, the more likely it is to be abused. We've already seen several times where bad actors have coopted movements like metoo and taken advantage of the speed of the response to ruin an innocent person and then get off relatively unscathed because almost no one cares once the initial outrage has passed.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#87
post #13

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“Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them…” “… In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as l…

He most definitely was not a free speech absolutist. The very quote you include makes that clear:

> But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force

The quote says rational argument and discourse is the preferred option but there will be times when all rational argument will be rejected and that may require suppression.

How do you get free speech absolutism from that?

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#88
post #51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censors made the same argument with the Printing Press and since time immemorial. Censorship has always been on the wrong side of history and it still is. Speaking of abusing systems, censors end up being the worst bad guys who imagine themselves as the good guys protecting you from the bad guys. EFF understands the long history of this issue.

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Renditions of extreme violence are legal, and common in cinema. I find them repulsive, but I support people's right to free speech; they should be allowed to produce renditions of extreme violence and distribute them. The movie Texas Chainsaw Massacre is legal, and I support that.

Doing a real life Texas Chainsaw Massacre is not legal. Recording a real life Texas Chainsaw Massacre and distributing the recordings should not be legal. I do not support that.

I do not believe the speech part of Texas Chainsaw Massacre should be illegal, no matter how repulsive I find that genre of entertainment to be. I do believe the non-speech parts of those acts should absolutely be illegal - for obvious reasons.

I personally do not believe I have to yield my absolutionist stance on free speech to say that content downstream of those actions can't be distributed and possessed. There is no way for that content to have been legally produced, therefor there is no way for that content to be legally possessed and distributed.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#89
Yawn. Non-telco(*1) Tier 1 provider declines to carry routes for an entity they don't like. Happens all the time. This is why you buy from a Tier 2 instead and bypass DFZ(*2) politics.

Drop routes from spammers: Spamhaus DROP list. Drop routes from DDoS sources? All the time.

Even Google wasn't reachable from Cogent over IPv6 for years because of a business dispute. For all we know someone working at HE was targeted by KF and this is a security response (also generally allowed even if you are a regulated provider).

*1: Cogent & HE thread the needle around being a common carrier (they don't sell voice or TDM service) or a broadband provider, which is why KF's WA state complaint will fail (WA's law only applies to mass-market retail providers, which HE is not).

*2: Tier 1 does not mean "best carrier" it means "carrier that doesn't pay another carrier for routes." DFZ literally means default-free zone as in they don't have a default route to another provider.

Re: ISPs should not police online speech no matter how awful it is

#90
post #51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censors made the same argument with the Printing Press and since time immemorial. Censorship has always been on the wrong side of history and it still is. Speaking of abusing systems, censors end up being the worst bad guys who imagine themselves as the good guys protecting you from the bad guys. EFF understands the long history of this issue.

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Child pornography, where real children are involved in any way, is/should be illegal because of the crime that has to occur to produce it.

Any CSAM which is fully divorced from real children (or any sort of crime in general) in all ways should be legal, as gross as it is.

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