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We Don’t Need a New Twitter

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Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#91

Post by randomdata »

dragontamer wrote: post #89
randomdata wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Reddit says X but Wikipedia says Y, do you trust X to be true or do you trust Y to be true? Neither. One – or both – of them might be true, but who cares? It is not advantageous to give it much concern. We have evolved to not rely on truths. "Is that a lion rustling those bushes or just the wind? Let me be absolutely certain it is a lion before I run." said no one who successfully passed on their genes ever. Tru…

COVID19 literally killed people I knew because they were too stupid to mask up and/or vaccinate people. Truths matter. And the others who survived it are physically weaker (worse breathing) and have seemingly permanently lost their smell. So yes, truths matter. Those who follow falsehoods will lead themselves (and their kin) into the depths of despair. While cheering and falsely claiming victory because victory/feeli…

> COVID19 literally killed people I knew because they were too stupid to mask up and/or vaccinate people.

A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way!

I put no effort into ensuring that it is true that masks are helpful, or if the vaccine would stave off the illness. Simply, the mental model of the world indicated that they posed no real harm in trying, so why not go for it? If it actually helped, great. If I wasted my time, also great! Who cares?

I'm sure all of us have flaws in our mental model of the world that will cause us to do something we shouldn't in some circumstance, but sharing of truths do nothing to correct those flaws. It is not like the truth about COIVD-19 isn't out there, but obviously it didn't help those who suffered.

> I'm also in the business of programming, which is largely in the business of truths.

Funny, I am too and it is exceedingly rare to find anyone who goes beyond gut feeling. Understandably so, as that's how our mind evolved to function. In fact, programmers love to argue about which gut feeling is right.

Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#92

Post by dragontamer »

randomdata wrote: post #91
dragontamer wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

COVID19 literally killed people I knew because they were too stupid to mask up and/or vaccinate people. Truths matter. And the others who survived it are physically weaker (worse breathing) and have seemingly permanently lost their smell. So yes, truths matter. Those who follow falsehoods will lead themselves (and their kin) into the depths of despair. While cheering and falsely claiming victory because victory/feeli…

> COVID19 literally killed people I knew because they were too stupid to mask up and/or vaccinate people. A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way! I put no effort into ensuring that it is true that masks are helpful, or if the vaccine would stave off the illness. Simply, the mental model of the world indicated that they posed no real har…

> A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way!

We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties with major sway over a huge number of people's behavior (local municipalities, as well as large-scale behaviors of our society).

At this point I think you're trolling me if you don't see why this is an important issue of our times.

Despite these idiots injecting themselves with useless ivermectin, catching COVID19 and literally dying, I do care about their lives. Not only because of personal relationships, but also as a society they still play a role in the workforce, as fathers or mothers, or other sociological bonuses to our overall life. It is still a tragedy that they've basically killed themselves due to misinformation.

----------

There are other political issues of the now, and of the future, where the truth will also matter.

Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#93

Post by zzzeek »

stronglikedan wrote: post #28
zzzeek wrote: post #23

Twitter was doing just fine when it banned nazis and covid disinformation. to call this "a more sanitized and boring experience" is textbook black and white reasoning. moderation is hard, but twitter's new "moderation is the CEO personally bans the accounts he's personally offended by, while people who share child exploitation videos are celebrated and paid cash" [1] is not the way to do it. [1] https://www.mediamatt…

But it still bans nazis, and it only ever promoted covid disinformation at the behest of the US gov (and there are receipts to prove it).

OK tell me about the US government connections for the people in this article (Based on a study from a group that Elon Musk is now suing):

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-doze...

Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#94

Post by randomdata »

dragontamer wrote: post #92
randomdata wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> COVID19 literally killed people I knew because they were too stupid to mask up and/or vaccinate people. A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way! I put no effort into ensuring that it is true that masks are helpful, or if the vaccine would stave off the illness. Simply, the mental model of the world indicated that they posed no real har…

> A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way! We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties with major sway over a huge number of people's behavior (local municipalities, as well as large-scale behaviors of our society). At this point I think you're trolling me if you don…

> We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties.

We also, at one point, had top doctors letting it be known that cloth masks increase the chance of infection. Not an unreasonable thing to say as the 2015, if I recall correctly, study in hospitals shows that medical professionals wearing cloth masks were at greater risk of infection of disease over wearing no mask due to increased incidents of face touching.

Not unreasonable, but not true, was it? Followup studies around COVID-19 in the general population found very different results. Now imagine if we got wrapped up in being concerned about what is "true". We'd be left thinking cloth masks are detrimental. But as we weren't concerned about what is true, we were willing to keep evaluating the situation.

> if you don't see why this is an important issue of our times.

As opposed to all the other times the Anti-Mask League showed up?

Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#95

Post by dragontamer »

randomdata wrote: post #94
dragontamer wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A fantastic example of the truth not mattering. Is a lion or just the wind? What difference does it make? Run either way! We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties with major sway over a huge number of people's behavior (local municipalities, as well as large-scale behaviors of our society). At this point I think you're trolling me if you don…

> We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties. We also, at one point, had top doctors letting it be known that cloth masks increase the chance of infection. Not an unreasonable thing to say as the 2015, if I recall correctly, study in hospitals shows that medical professionals wearing cloth masks were at greater risk of infection of disease over…

I'm talking about the simple crap. Like, does Ivermectin work at stopping COVID19? Answer: no. It never did, it never had a chance. It was studied first by the RECOVERY Trials and Dexamethasone was the first cheap ($20ish) drug found to be useful.

All the bullshit with Ivermectin after RECOVERY trials was just that: bullshit and misinformation.

Come on dude, its not so hard to see the misinformation littering our discussion space. And your avoidance of the _OBVIOUS_ problems to seed your argument is proof that you're in this for internet points rather than truthful discussion.

There's obvious misinformation, and obvious untruths at play here. And people who want to pretend and muddy the waters. And I'm beginning to think you're one of those muddying the waters dishonest discussion people given how you're misleading this conversation.

--------------

There's a set of honest discussion points that are in our culture.

There's a set of dishonest, misinformation, misleading trolls in our culture.

Are you honestly trying to deny this 2nd group of people's existence? That's all I'm trying to point out.

Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#96

Post by randomdata »

dragontamer wrote: post #95
randomdata wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We literally just had anti-mask protesters and anti-vaccine protesters take over one of the major political parties. We also, at one point, had top doctors letting it be known that cloth masks increase the chance of infection. Not an unreasonable thing to say as the 2015, if I recall correctly, study in hospitals shows that medical professionals wearing cloth masks were at greater risk of infection of disease over…

I'm talking about the simple crap. Like, does Ivermectin work at stopping COVID19? Answer: no. It never did, it never had a chance. It was studied first by the RECOVERY Trials and Dexamethasone was the first cheap ($20ish) drug found to be useful. All the bullshit with Ivermectin after RECOVERY trials was just that: bullshit and misinformation. Come on dude, its not so hard to see the misinformation littering our dis…

> Like, does Ivermectin work? Answer: no.

And what if you told me it did? What would change? The answer is nothing. Not getting wrapped up in what is true also means not getting wrapped up in what is false. It cuts both ways.

Honestly, I don't know what these non-sequiturs are trying to serve. They have nothing to do with the discussion taking place. It seems like you just want to go on some weird political rant or to express your emotions in some strange way. A discussion has no place for either of those things.

Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#97

Post by dragontamer »

randomdata wrote: post #96
dragontamer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about the simple crap. Like, does Ivermectin work at stopping COVID19? Answer: no. It never did, it never had a chance. It was studied first by the RECOVERY Trials and Dexamethasone was the first cheap ($20ish) drug found to be useful. All the bullshit with Ivermectin after RECOVERY trials was just that: bullshit and misinformation. Come on dude, its not so hard to see the misinformation littering our dis…

> Like, does Ivermectin work? Answer: no. And what if you told me it did? What would change? The answer is nothing. Not getting wrapped up in what is true also means not getting wrapped up in what is false. It cuts both ways. Honestly, I don't know what these non-sequiturs are trying to serve. They have nothing to do with the discussion taking place. It seems like you just want to go on some weird political rant or t…

Misinformation exists online.

Trolls are creating misinformation and using it for political gain. That's my point.

Because these trolls see political benefits in misleading people, they'll continue to do so, and continue to grow in power as they mislead large segments of the population.

------------

Truthful discussion is the only thing that can combat it. And *simple truths exist*. Despite your attempts at proving otherwise.

This is important because when we talk about our online discussion spaces, like Reddit, Wikipedia, or Twitter, I'm evaluating them on how easy it is for the misinformation-trolls to win and bully themselves into an advantageous position, and how easy it is for the Truth to be gleaned (or at least, a community of truth-seekers to be developed).

Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#98

Post by randomdata »

dragontamer wrote: post #97
randomdata wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like, does Ivermectin work? Answer: no. And what if you told me it did? What would change? The answer is nothing. Not getting wrapped up in what is true also means not getting wrapped up in what is false. It cuts both ways. Honestly, I don't know what these non-sequiturs are trying to serve. They have nothing to do with the discussion taking place. It seems like you just want to go on some weird political rant or t…

Misinformation exists online. Trolls are creating misinformation and using it for political gain. That's my point. Because these trolls see political benefits in misleading people, they'll continue to do so, and continue to grow in power as they mislead large segments of the population. ------------ Truthful discussion is the only thing that can combat it. And *simple truths exist*. Despite your attempts at proving o…

> Trolls are creating misinformation and using it for political gain. That's my point.

Yes, I understand that is your point. Just as I could make it my point that the sky is blue. But why would we want to make these points? These non-sequiturs add nothing of value.

Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#99

Post by dragontamer »

randomdata wrote: post #98
dragontamer wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Misinformation exists online. Trolls are creating misinformation and using it for political gain. That's my point. Because these trolls see political benefits in misleading people, they'll continue to do so, and continue to grow in power as they mislead large segments of the population. ------------ Truthful discussion is the only thing that can combat it. And *simple truths exist*. Despite your attempts at proving o…

> Trolls are creating misinformation and using it for political gain. That's my point. Yes, I understand that is your point. Just as I could make it my point that the sky is blue. But why would we want to make these points? These non-sequiturs add nothing of value.

Because Reddit and Twitter are havens of misinformation (especially more recently as moderators are protesting / refusing to do as much of a job they did before). And other websites have higher levels of trust with me.

You know. The point of the discussion?

The entire crux of Twitter and Reddit is about discussions, and IMO, truth-seeking is one of the most important roles discussion plays. How well a webpage, or other system, functions in regards to truth-seeking is a high priority for me.

Re: We Don’t Need a New Twitter

#100

Post by akkartik »

randomdata wrote: post #88
dragontamer wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Reddit says X but Wikipedia says Y, do you trust X to be true or do you trust Y to be true? I'm talking about curation and quality of the editor force. Wikipedia's editors are highly respected by everyone. Reddit... not so much.

> If Reddit says X but Wikipedia says Y, do you trust X to be true or do you trust Y to be true? Neither. One – or both – of them might be true, but who cares? It is not advantageous to give it much concern. We have evolved to not rely on truths. "Is that a lion rustling those bushes or just the wind? Let me be absolutely certain it is a lion before I run." said no one who successfully passed on their genes ever. Tru…

It's not a measure of _their_ success we're concerned with. It's a measure of _our_ success if we trust them.

Nobody is perfectly reliable. But some people and orgs are more reliable than others. How you choose to navigate this spectrum affects your life. I think that's all dragontamer is saying. And it seems reasonable.

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