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Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

wsj.com

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Re: Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

#11

Post by lotsofpulp »

tpankaj wrote: post #9
lotsofpulp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless there is a contract with the employee, such as a collective bargaining agreement with a union, there is no legal reason a business has to pay an employee severance in the US. A business might pay an employee severance for morale purposes, good PR, and/or to entice the employee to sign agreements that reduce the business's future liabilities. If an employee agrees to quit their job in exchange for severance mon…

There's a difference between legal reasons and decency

Sure, but note that anyone who does not work for government or big or well funded businesses is not going to get severance when they are laid off or terminated. Which is probably half of the US or maybe even more. All the franchised restaurants/hotels, most retail, smaller construction contractors, etc.

It is mostly a benefit for those earning more than median incomes.

Re: Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

#12

Post by IMTDb »

datavirtue wrote: post #10

Head of growth marketing? Sales enablement? My god, your job title should have given you sufficient heads-up. My advice to new college students is to code whether you like it or not. Work sucks, period. Might as well get paid and have free time and enjoy being in demand. Those are definitely bullshit jobs.

Yeah, the dude checks all the red flags. He needs an enabler/management position with "senior" in the title (at 34), and of course we have the combo of remote + baby at home mixed in. When asked to actually sell software himself it "took a hit on his mental health". Not quitting was "a matter of principle". TBH it was a bit more than that; if not at IBM, where else could he have found such an entrenched position ?

Re: Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

#13

Post by wkat4242 »

toss1 wrote: post #4
version_five wrote: post #3

This appears to be a way to avoid paying severance. I'd expect any decent employer would offer employees the choice to leave with appropriate severance if they were going to do this to them.

Not only severance but unemployment compensation (which can significantly affect mandatory unemployment insurance costs to the company) can also be avoided by companies if their people quit instead of being laid off. That is why there is the concept of "Constructive Dismissal" (or other similar terms). If the company is significantly degrading your work conditions, hours, requirements, interactions, responsibilities,…

> If you have immediate better employment options, take them without doing your old company any favors.

Not sure about the US but here in Europe that's a very bad idea. If you change jobs willingly you give up your "seniority" meaning if your next job lays you off you will get no severance and also lower unemployment benefits. So caving in you would give up a huge chunk of social security.

If you have a mortgage in particular I wouldn't risk it. I have 15 years seniority right now. Meaning I'd get full pay for more than a year after being laid off. No way would I quit voluntarily.

But this coercion is pretty rare here because unions are strong. They won't put up with that shit.

On an individual level it's probably best to play the same game. They screw you just within the lines, you screw them back just within the lines. But again luckily this skullduggery is rare here.

Re: Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

#14

Post by bdcravens »

datavirtue wrote: post #10

Head of growth marketing? Sales enablement? My god, your job title should have given you sufficient heads-up. My advice to new college students is to code whether you like it or not. Work sucks, period. Might as well get paid and have free time and enjoy being in demand. Those are definitely bullshit jobs.

Not that I support it in totality, but that's why I wasn't surprised when Twitter didn't fall over when Elon fired 80% of staff.

Re: Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

#15

Post by toss1 »

wkat4242 wrote: post #13
toss1 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only severance but unemployment compensation (which can significantly affect mandatory unemployment insurance costs to the company) can also be avoided by companies if their people quit instead of being laid off. That is why there is the concept of "Constructive Dismissal" (or other similar terms). If the company is significantly degrading your work conditions, hours, requirements, interactions, responsibilities,…

> If you have immediate better employment options, take them without doing your old company any favors. Not sure about the US but here in Europe that's a very bad idea. If you change jobs willingly you give up your "seniority" meaning if your next job lays you off you will get no severance and also lower unemployment benefits. So caving in you would give up a huge chunk of social security. If you have a mortgage in p…

Indeed!! - I was speaking only in the US context and I am not a lawyer; not legal advice).

Same sort of applies here but usually only if you are a union employee, but then you have your union management who can resolve such issues.

Re: Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

#16

Post by gustavus »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #8
version_five wrote: post #3

This appears to be a way to avoid paying severance. I'd expect any decent employer would offer employees the choice to leave with appropriate severance if they were going to do this to them.

Unless there is a contract with the employee, such as a collective bargaining agreement with a union, there is no legal reason a business has to pay an employee severance in the US. A business might pay an employee severance for morale purposes, good PR, and/or to entice the employee to sign agreements that reduce the business's future liabilities. If an employee agrees to quit their job in exchange for severance mon…

My understanding, which could be wrong, is that in a lot of cases severance is offered on condition you won't fight the termination or take legal action.

So it is in part a CYA from the companies side.

Re: Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

#18

Post by ae_throw »

bdcravens wrote: post #14
datavirtue wrote: post #10

Head of growth marketing? Sales enablement? My god, your job title should have given you sufficient heads-up. My advice to new college students is to code whether you like it or not. Work sucks, period. Might as well get paid and have free time and enjoy being in demand. Those are definitely bullshit jobs.

Not that I support it in totality, but that's why I wasn't surprised when Twitter didn't fall over when Elon fired 80% of staff.

[flagged]

Re: Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

#19

Post by frumper »

toss1 wrote: post #4
version_five wrote: post #3

This appears to be a way to avoid paying severance. I'd expect any decent employer would offer employees the choice to leave with appropriate severance if they were going to do this to them.

Not only severance but unemployment compensation (which can significantly affect mandatory unemployment insurance costs to the company) can also be avoided by companies if their people quit instead of being laid off. That is why there is the concept of "Constructive Dismissal" (or other similar terms). If the company is significantly degrading your work conditions, hours, requirements, interactions, responsibilities,…

At least in California, if your employer substantially changes your work duties or schedule, then you can very likely collect UI. Your advice to take better employment options is still the best advice though.

Re: Layoffs are down, but employers are still finding ways to cut jobs

#20

Post by mvdtnz »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #8
version_five wrote: post #3

This appears to be a way to avoid paying severance. I'd expect any decent employer would offer employees the choice to leave with appropriate severance if they were going to do this to them.

Unless there is a contract with the employee, such as a collective bargaining agreement with a union, there is no legal reason a business has to pay an employee severance in the US. A business might pay an employee severance for morale purposes, good PR, and/or to entice the employee to sign agreements that reduce the business's future liabilities. If an employee agrees to quit their job in exchange for severance mon…

> Unless there is a contract with the employee, such as a collective bargaining agreement with a union, there is no legal reason a business has to pay an employee severance in the US.

Who on Earth is working without an employment contract?

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