Live data from Hacker News

Seven Sins of Writing

hamilton.edu

61–70 of 119 posts

Re: Seven Sins of Writing

#61
post #60

Why the hell is passive voice so frowned up by Americans?

I think you mean "Why the hell do Americans frown on passive voice?" ;)

I blame the early MS Word grammar checker which always called out passive voice as poor style. :P I'd imagine it was written that way because passive voice was easy to detect, and corporate power posturing tended to paint passive voice as 'weak'.

That said, passive voice is also associated with weasel wording and evasiveness, so if you're trying to communicate clearly and directly, it might not be the best way to phrase things.

Re: Seven Sins of Writing

#62

I wish I understood what "wordiness" means. Perhaps it's restating the same simple point three times in as many loose sentences. People who harp on this point usually point to the writing of Hemingway and similar writers (Carver comes to mind). All of these men are better writers than I am, but I still prefer to read Nabokov. Could Nabokov have "made his point" in fewer words? Almost certainly, but I wouldn't have en…

To understand wordiness read any of Dickens with the fact he was paid based on the length of the book. Not the sales.

He will describe, in excruciating detail, the inconsiquential aspects of a one time characters outfit.

Re: Seven Sins of Writing

#63
post #17

My disappointment in my education is how much these rules were emphasized over content. The hard part of writing is content--not syntax. Just like programming is about logic, and syntax is a minor nitpick one needs to know. But I think the real reason these rules were emphasized so much is that they are easy to grade and explain.

If you’ve ever read students’ writing, you’d immediately understand why these rules exist.

Many students can’t get the basics down — and their writing is borderline illegible. How are they supposed to master content when they can’t master form?

Re: Seven Sins of Writing

#64

I wish I understood what "wordiness" means. Perhaps it's restating the same simple point three times in as many loose sentences. People who harp on this point usually point to the writing of Hemingway and similar writers (Carver comes to mind). All of these men are better writers than I am, but I still prefer to read Nabokov. Could Nabokov have "made his point" in fewer words? Almost certainly, but I wouldn't have en…

Hmmm, let's demonstrate wordiness :) > I wish I understood what "wordiness" means. Perhaps it's restating the same simple point three times in as many loose sentences. Does wordiness mean restating the same simple point three times in as many loose sentences? > People who harp on this point usually point to the writing of Hemingway and similar writers (Carver comes to mind). All of these men are better writers than I…

>I personally find it a joy to read Nabokov despite his wordiness, and I do not think my reading enjoyment is related to being wordy.

> [original:] Could Nabokov have "made his point" in fewer words? Almost certainly, but I wouldn't have enjoyed them any more.

This sentence is a great example of how the main semantics of the sentence are actually the same but their subtext are entirely different. In both cases, the main point is that GP concludes that 'reading enjoyment is not correlated to wordiness'.

But in the first case, Nabokov is enjoyable despite the wordiness, whereas in the original it sounds more like it's an important part of the charm; reducing it would not improve enjoyment, and probably reduce it. It is almost opposite.

As an aside I think it's quite a dumb rule. If wordiness is bad, you'd get maximum enjoyment from a summary. Wordiness should be correlated in a more complex way to what is being told, the impression it should make, and the place within the narrative flow.

Another aside, the ChatGPT version (much more respectful of semantics, but barely more concise): Those who emphasize this often refer to writers like Hemingway and others such as Carver. While these writers are more skilled than me, I still favor reading Nabokov. Could Nabokov have expressed his idea more succinctly? Likely, but I wouldn't have found it more enjoyable.

Re: Seven Sins of Writing

#65
so an aspect of passive voice use is the difference between transitive and intransitve verbs. passive voice needs transitive verb use, a subject receives the action of a transitve verb, right? you cant use intransitive verbs with a passive voice

Re: Seven Sins of Writing

#67
PASSIVE VOICE: Thomas Jefferson’s support of the new Constitution was documented in a letter to James Madison. ACTIVE VOICE: Thomas Jefferson documented his support of the new Constitution in a letter to James Madison.

IMO the passive voice makes much more sence for this example.

Re: Seven Sins of Writing

#68
post #67

PASSIVE VOICE: Thomas Jefferson’s support of the new Constitution was documented in a letter to James Madison. ACTIVE VOICE: Thomas Jefferson documented his support of the new Constitution in a letter to James Madison. IMO the passive voice makes much more sence for this example.

a letter sent to James Madison documented Thomas Jefferson’s support of the new Constitution. ?

Re: Seven Sins of Writing

#69
Any Jerry Pournelle fans here? One thing he said was that to become a proficient writer, you needed to write enough to fill a steamer trunk and his view was that the trunk full of writing was not fit to publish and the biggest sin in writing was selling anything in that trunk after you became recognized as a writer because it was only accepted because of its provenance and not its quality.

Re: Seven Sins of Writing

#70
Regarding the passive: you should read Joseph M. Williams' "Style: Ten Lessons in Clarity and Grace" that discusses where the passive voice is preferable to the active voice. Namely when it creates better cohesion and flow.

The whole idea behind Williams' (and Gopen's and McEnerny's – they are all from the University of Chicago) style is that you should arrange your words so that they sit in the correct positions. Namely something old in the beginning of the sentence (paragraph, section...), something new in the end. Something important in the stress position. Something contextual in the topical position. Etc.

The use of the passive is precisely that it lets you rearrange sentences so that certain parts go in "the other" position, that would be unnatural in an active construction, but that is correct in the logic of the sentence.

This is practical style, by the way. Look up Thomas' and Turner's "Clear and simple as the truth" for a discussion of different styles and a tutorial in "classic style".

Post reply on HN