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Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

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Re: Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

#61
As a lay person, it has been extremely difficult to figure out what is going on. I have a weak grasp on four points(with low confidence on any of them being completely accurate):

1. There is an excess supply of apartments including the ones that have already been sold. The demand side is mostly people buying second and third units as investments.

2. China is going through a weird demographic situation. The younger generations are significantly fewer in number, they will need fewer apartments to live in.

3. Chinese provincial governments raise money by developing land and continue to be incentivized to build/approve/encourage a lot of apartment units.

4. All of this is funded with mortgages.

Thing is, all four of these can not possibly be right. It’s a little too insane. Whoever is on the other side of all those mortgages should have abandoned ship a long time ago otherwise.

What am I missing?

Who is holding all that mortgage debt? Who is continuing to issue more of that debt? When do the number of people selling their investment properties exceed the number of younger generations looking to buy their first primary residence?

Re: Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

#62
post #49

Can someone explain to me why is this problem? The houses that they've built are still standing, people can still live in them, what's the problem?

Evergrand and other I-companies all tried to become "everything" companies.. They invested heavily into other parts of the Chinese economy. Like ecars, manufacturing etc. and these parts are now going bankrupt too. I guess the ccp has about one or two years left, it will not weather this storm. To many life savings, dreams and futures get crushed right now. One can not eat bitter forever.

Re: Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

#63
post #44

Why isn’t it down 100%? According to the article, they’re in bankruptcy with way more liabilities than assets. Presumably the shareholders are getting wiped out.

Bed Bath and Beyond and Sears helped me realize that the cold eyes sanity of investors is often overstated. These were both bankrupt companies who developed stockholders with cultish beliefs around the company's ongoing viability. With Evergrande, I imagine some people believe it might be important enough for China that it may someday get a bailout. I don't believe it.

On the other hand, Hertz.

Re: Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

#64
post #49

Can someone explain to me why is this problem? The houses that they've built are still standing, people can still live in them, what's the problem?

>The houses that they've built are still standing

No, they are demolishing whole empty cities to keep the prices up.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/The-age-of-Great-China/Con...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AuWH2GdH1w

Re: Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

#65

As a lay person, it has been extremely difficult to figure out what is going on. I have a weak grasp on four points(with low confidence on any of them being completely accurate): 1. There is an excess supply of apartments including the ones that have already been sold. The demand side is mostly people buying second and third units as investments. 2. China is going through a weird demographic situation. The younger ge…

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Re: Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

#67
post #49

Can someone explain to me why is this problem? The houses that they've built are still standing, people can still live in them, what's the problem?

There are a number, and I mean a large number of issues. I'll just pick a few

1.) as of 2021, There are nearly 800 unfinished Evergrande projects in more than 200 cities across China. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/business/china-evergrande.... Even if the buildings were unfinished, the buyer still had to keep paying the mortgage!! and if they didn't, and the courts foreclosed the property and sold it, the buyer is liable for the fees and the differences. Most of the time the buyer is hugely underwater since the real estate price in 2023 has crashed 50% - 70% from peak. And now, because your social credit is shot, you no longer can purchase tickets for flight or train, making it even harder to try to find jobs to pay back your debt.

2.) China is known for its tofu dreg buildings. Just google online if you want to see brand new condos with facades blown off, cracked foundation, sand mixture where cement should be, tilted buildings, etc. This is especially true with buildings built in the last few years. And this is especially true for buildings from bankrupt mega developers like evergrande and country garden.

3.) This is a domino that leads to a series of systemic collapse. Country garden, the second largest developer in China, missed bond payments as small as 22 million recently. It had a capitalization of 60B in 2018. Now it has a debt of 200B. Zhongzhi enterprise missed payments recently, being one of the largest trust company. People are reminded of Lehman from these events. https://www.businessinsider.com/china-economy-beijing-lehman.... Doesn't help that export and import just collapsed by double digits in July, exports to US dropped 23% y/y, there's huge youth unemployment of at least 22%, foreign investment dropped 90% in 2023, and the worst flood in the last 50 years just hit China's biggest grain region.

Oh yeah, and because Chinese citizens are outraged by Fukushima release, they are boycotting Japanese seafood, and in general all seafood, which has decimated the entire seafood industry in China overnight, with no traffic to seafood market or restaurants.

4.) Even if the buildings were done, a lot of the buildings are empty and not livable due to shoddy finish, foreclosures, no public amenities working, lack of residents (owners are selling the units at 50% price cuts), etc. Imagine living in a huge 50 story building with only a few residents at night. https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/see-inside-a-ghost...

Re: Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sold more than they have created. Ie they need money to finish the ones they have sold. And they have excess debts that their assets no longer cover because the housing market crashed. Additionally, they just took on obscene debts. The banks did not do the appropriate due diligence (hypothesis is the local governments interfered). But I know only what rando YouTube videos have told me.

TLDR: there's a huge regulatory crisis going on in both the US and China markets (again). Now the failure of 1 large entity can crash entire empire(s). Basically the same corruption that societies have been battling ever since societies existed.

What's the worst that can happen? It's all just numbers on papers or memory. When Evergrande folds, others will pick up the opportunity.

Why should the government and the non-investors pay for government agencies that enforce regulations? If investors cannot handle due diligence, let them pay private agencies to secure their investments.

Re: Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

#69

As a lay person, it has been extremely difficult to figure out what is going on. I have a weak grasp on four points(with low confidence on any of them being completely accurate): 1. There is an excess supply of apartments including the ones that have already been sold. The demand side is mostly people buying second and third units as investments. 2. China is going through a weird demographic situation. The younger ge…

1.) "The demand side is mostly people buying second and third units as investments." that is incorrect. Most purchases are first purchases from couples that want to get married, and a home purchase is a required dowry from men that they need in order to get approved for marriage from the parents.

There are famous online videos from newlyweds that purchased a condo from a few years ago, and have been documenting their journey, and they still haven't received the unit. Meanwhile their kid was born already.

2.) Yes, just google "empty kindegardens in China". Also, marriages dropped to the lowest since records began in 1986. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/14/marriages-in-c...

3.) Nope. China’s government land sales revenue declined for the 19th consecutive month in July. Land sales fell 10.1% from a year earlier in July, after declining 24.3% the previous month https://www.reuters.com/article/china-economy-landsales/chin...

The Chinese local governments' bonds alone total at about $2 trillion, and any defaults would rock the Asian nation's $60 trillion financial system, according to Bloomberg. https://www.businessinsider.in/stock-market/news/chinas-10-t...

Re: Evergrande shares plunge as much as 87% as trading resumes after 17 months

#70
post #59
post #26

Having read the article but not heard of Evergrande prior to this, what are the implications of this outside of China? The article mentions that the company filed for bankruptcy in the US, but not what US operations/developments they had.

They have $340bn of debt; even if they default on the whole amount, it's only 10% of China currency reserves. The problem, however, is not the nominal amount but how the company network is inter-connected with other companies (either abroad or locally). This amount, albeit not colossal (by China relative size) could trigger effects in other companies that will lead to their failure. This will go on until it becomes a…

Would it be worthwhile to create the insights?

E.g. if there were a global registry of credit dependencies and ownership, at least for system relevant companies, we should know what is going to happen.

But what is the worst that could happen? If companies fold, ownership will be transferred. As long as the companies are profitable, their business will continue.

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