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IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

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Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#51

Post by fidotron »

verall wrote: post #46
fidotron wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of a bayer filter means that the actual edges for different colour areas are created in software processing afterwards. This causes everything to be slightly misaligned and fuzzy in a way the foveon was not, and no amount of reconstructive processing is going to help you. Of course today the actual resolution of more conventional sensors dramatically exceeds the best foveons to the point where this advantage…

I work on camera systems, I know how a Bayer filter works, it doesn't make everything misaligned and fuzzy. Edge directed upscaling works great. I'm curious how the foveon looked different or if you had an example. If you only mean for old digital cameras, then sure. But you're not seeing bayer artifacts in any modern camera. Rolling shutter artifacts, on the other hand..

> I work on camera systems, I know how a Bayer filter works, it doesn't make everything misaligned and fuzzy. Edge directed upscaling works great.

The point is you might think that if you were blissfully unaware of anything else. Even if you're not you shouldn't, because edge directed upscaling is imagining information into the sensor data that isn't actually there.

Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#52

Post by dragonwriter »

andrewpolidori wrote: post #47
bawolff wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emphasis on "long", as in long time ago, as in before many of us were born. Modern IBM isn't what it once was. Edit: to clarify i mean on the software side. I don't know enough about the hardware side to comment.

Modern IBM is at the forefront of modern chip design. They regularly publish some of the most advanced research in the world, and are part of the industry consortium driving those changes.

How often do they deliver viable new commercial products? Or are they for “modern chip design” what Google is for “modern AI models”?

Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#53

Post by pjmlp »

wil421 wrote: post #44
ginko wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in a FANG you can't just walk to your manager and tell them to get a mainframe so you can play around with z/OS.

No one will let you play with a mainframe. I’ve worked for finical services companies and toured a data center with large IBM mainframes I wasn’t allowed to get close to much less touch the software. I’m sure if I wanted to move to the team it would’ve been possible to play with z/OS.

In 1994's Summer I was doing AS/400 backups during my internship.

It is a matter of being on the right team.

Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#54

Post by dragonwriter »

pjmlp wrote: post #24
magic_man wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBM revenue has been shrinking over the last 10 years. They aren't selling well.

Many companies would dream of a revenue with that many digits.

Yes, IBM reached a peak in the past from which a gradual fall still leaves them raking in money from largely legacy enterprise clients for a very long time.

That doesn't make them competitive in new markets, though.

Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#55

Post by [deleted] »

whinvik wrote: post #34

I have become pretty wary of all headlines touting how a new chip is going to dethrone Nvidia. The problem with every hardware company is that they ridiculously underestimate software. I think the only way a company is going to start competing is by being software first. Make the software so good and easy to use that every one wants to use it. Only then is the hardware going to compete.

[deleted]

Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#56

Post by pjmlp »

dragonwriter wrote: post #54
pjmlp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many companies would dream of a revenue with that many digits.

Yes, IBM reached a peak in the past from which a gradual fall still leaves them raking in money from largely legacy enterprise clients for a very long time. That doesn't make them competitive in new markets, though.

Unfortunately I won't be around to check on it, lets see in 100 years who would still be around.

Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#57

Post by numpad0 »

verall wrote: post #46
fidotron wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of a bayer filter means that the actual edges for different colour areas are created in software processing afterwards. This causes everything to be slightly misaligned and fuzzy in a way the foveon was not, and no amount of reconstructive processing is going to help you. Of course today the actual resolution of more conventional sensors dramatically exceeds the best foveons to the point where this advantage…

I work on camera systems, I know how a Bayer filter works, it doesn't make everything misaligned and fuzzy. Edge directed upscaling works great. I'm curious how the foveon looked different or if you had an example. If you only mean for old digital cameras, then sure. But you're not seeing bayer artifacts in any modern camera. Rolling shutter artifacts, on the other hand..

It's not like Foveons are objectively better for satellite imageries and military "electro-optical" cameras, it's bit of a digital camera equivalent to reversal films and DSD audio.

The two main gotchas of Foveon sensors in its days(so far) were while SIGMA maintained that Foveon pixels are worth 3x Bayer, the sensor resolutions were consistently 1/3rd or less than competitors to begin with, and also that the sensitivity was atrocious. ISO800 was pushing it for early models and recognizable colors at ISO3200 in later models was an achievement in its own(they lose chroma before luma). Fujifilm did better than that in films!

SIGMA Corporation in Japan was virtually the only user of Foveon sensor, in their DP and SD series cameras. Photos taken with e.g. dp2 Quattro in 50mm, DP1x in 28mm are easily found on Flickr. To me a Foveon image looks like it's taken through a piece of radiation shielding glass and later color corrected, which I'm guessing to be close to literal description as the color components are indeed captured through preceding luma and first chroma layers.

Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#58

Post by bawolff »

pjmlp wrote: post #5
ilaksh wrote: post #2

I thinks this type of paradigm shift is what will be needed for the next level of performance for AI. But it also seems like for that to be competitive with current methods, they need to reduce the size by a factor of 2-3 and also make bigger chips. I just feel like IBM has a track record recently of doing great research but not actually manufacturing anything. Kind of like Google.

Usually IBM doesn't sell to the kind of HN crowd, rather people happy with Aix, IBM i and z/OS, DB2, cloud for mainframes, own JVM implementations, Java EE servers, offshoring services,... Some of the research does end in such products, that are outside HN radar, because IBM isn't cool, yet many HN startups won't achieve a legacy like it and still be pumping money like IBM, even for boring business.

I don't think anyone disputes that ibm is the heir to an impressive tech empire. In its day it was definitely something.

They just haven't done a whole lot lately, and most of what they have done is support people locked into their legacy solutions.

Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#59

Post by Legend2440 »

phreeza wrote: post #6
ilaksh wrote: post #2

I thinks this type of paradigm shift is what will be needed for the next level of performance for AI. But it also seems like for that to be competitive with current methods, they need to reduce the size by a factor of 2-3 and also make bigger chips. I just feel like IBM has a track record recently of doing great research but not actually manufacturing anything. Kind of like Google.

The closest equivalent Google has is the TPU which is very much a manufactured thing at large scale.

TPUs are a lot more like GPUs, they're just a bunch of tensor cores and high speed memory.

The chip in the article gains its advantages from doing the compute directly in the memory cells. It saves power by moving information around less.

Re: IBM analog AI chip could give the Nvidia H100 a run for its money

#60

Post by ethbr1 »

wil421 wrote: post #44
ginko wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in a FANG you can't just walk to your manager and tell them to get a mainframe so you can play around with z/OS.

No one will let you play with a mainframe. I’ve worked for finical services companies and toured a data center with large IBM mainframes I wasn’t allowed to get close to much less touch the software. I’m sure if I wanted to move to the team it would’ve been possible to play with z/OS.

I feel like the irony here is that for all the fences most companies put around their mainframes... at the end of the day and inside the fence it's usually 1-2 people running everything who still know how to hack JCL et al.
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