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Prisoners of Google Android development

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Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#91

Post by mavamaarten »

binkHN wrote: post #34

While I concur with the author on the challenges of Android development, the author made two major mistakes. One, he didn't test his app on the latest version of Android. This a very major mistake and the reason why we keep 11 virtual machines around with all the versions of Android that our app is supported on. Two, when you release an app on Google Play, you never, never, never deploy the app to 100% of your user b…

Protip: that field takes decimals too. We always go for 99.99999999% so no users get left out accidentally. But it allows you to cancel a rollout like you say

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#92

Post by nvm0n2 »

gmiller123456 wrote: post #84
nvm0n2 wrote: post #61

In theory this kind of "controlled" backwards compatibility break is good, it lets old apps work whilst encouraging developers to keep up with platform changes. In practice it has the nasty side effect of preventing the scaling of the software industry, and with it, industrial society. Therefore Google should drop this policy and allow old programs to be distributed forever. With near perfect backwards compatibility,…

This is not about backwards compatability. Google is preventing users from installing apps that are 100% compatible with their phone.

Yes, exactly. It is a "controlled" break. The OS is capable of being backwards incompatible but store policies create an equivalent of it being not backwards compatible.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#93

Post by marcosdumay »

pmontra wrote: post #26

> I'm not even sure why are we, as developers, allowing this to happen — there's usually not any good reason to develop mobile applications at all anymore. It's time to move back to open (web) standards and take control back into our own hands! In general yes, but if I look at the apps on my phone I have A mail client, K9, old UI. This clearly can't be replaced by a web app because I'm using it to look at my mail in…

Those could all run in a browser. A PWA isn't cloud software, it's just software that runs on your browser.

But they would indeed ask for all kinds of permissions. And K9 and the network scanner would get a really scary-looking permission dialog.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#94

Post by IshKebab »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #88
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Truthfully, I'd prefer to get rid of the app and just have users go to the website and install the PWA, but the average user still doesn't know how to do this. Let's be clear: that's not because users don't know how to do it. It's because Google and Apple haven't made it as easy as installing an app from their app store. That's a choice, and it's a deliberate one.

I disagree, at least on the Android side of things (Apple has long been hostile to PWAs). Installing a PWA from a website is trivially easy on Android, it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Also, Google has made in much easier in recent years to submit plain PWAs to the Play Store: https://yo…

> it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites.

Right, because for a very long time (and maybe still) PWAs have been much closer to terrible websites than good apps. They generally don't have the same UX properties as real apps.

Remember when the iPhone first came out and web apps were the only option and they sucked balls? That never really changed. People still find mobile sites with maps that are impossible to use. They don't expect that from app store apps.

And if it's just a web site, why do you need to "install" it? A link is surely sufficient?

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#95

Post by BaseballPhysics »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #88
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Truthfully, I'd prefer to get rid of the app and just have users go to the website and install the PWA, but the average user still doesn't know how to do this. Let's be clear: that's not because users don't know how to do it. It's because Google and Apple haven't made it as easy as installing an app from their app store. That's a choice, and it's a deliberate one.

I disagree, at least on the Android side of things (Apple has long been hostile to PWAs). Installing a PWA from a website is trivially easy on Android, it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Also, Google has made in much easier in recent years to submit plain PWAs to the Play Store: https://yo…

On Android you have to pop open a menu and find the install option. That's not inherently discoverable as you need to know it's even possible, and most people don't.

It would be trivial to present the user with a more proactive notification that a site can be installed as an app, or even include such a notice in their search results on Google, but they choose not to do so.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#96

Post by es7 »

l72 wrote: post #51

I also got this email, but professionally and personally. Personally, I voluntarily built and run open source apps for 16 different cities for their transit system. This gave me two weeks to update 16 apps, for no benefit of anyone. My app is a PWA, and the Android version just uses cordova + a few plugins to add a few native options. Unfortunately, updating cordova to support the new target android api broke some of…

I love cordova for my personal apps, but once every year or two when I’m forced to update Android and iOS they become such a nightmare. I spend days or weeks getting unblocked because I don’t have unlimited time to maintain these apps alongside everything else in my life.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#97

Post by BaseballPhysics »

IshKebab wrote: post #94
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, at least on the Android side of things (Apple has long been hostile to PWAs). Installing a PWA from a website is trivially easy on Android, it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Also, Google has made in much easier in recent years to submit plain PWAs to the Play Store: https://yo…

> it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Right, because for a very long time (and maybe still) PWAs have been much closer to terrible websites than good apps. They generally don't have the same UX properties as real apps. Remember when the iPhone first came out and web apps were the only optio…

> And if it's just a web site, why do you need to "install" it? A link is surely sufficient?

Really? You don't understand the value in having the PWA appear as a native app icon alongside everything else on the device?

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#98

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

IshKebab wrote: post #94
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, at least on the Android side of things (Apple has long been hostile to PWAs). Installing a PWA from a website is trivially easy on Android, it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Also, Google has made in much easier in recent years to submit plain PWAs to the Play Store: https://yo…

> it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Right, because for a very long time (and maybe still) PWAs have been much closer to terrible websites than good apps. They generally don't have the same UX properties as real apps. Remember when the iPhone first came out and web apps were the only optio…

> And if it's just a web site, why do you need to "install" it? A link is surely sufficient?

The point is that there are apps that can pretty much be built entirely using web technologies as PWAs, but in doing so they are no longer "just web sites" and they need functionality of installed apps, like notifications. For example, most banking apps on Android could be entirely rewritten as PWAs, but they'd need to make use of things like notifications (I don't want a random website sending me notifications, but I DO want notifications of activity on my bank account) and camera APIs (e.g. for mobile check deposit).

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#100

Post by natch »

o1y32 wrote: post #10

> It's time to move back to open (web) standards and take control back into our own hands! Wait till you discover that the web is also half controlled by the company that is causing your problem now (Google). And Apple who owns Safari, the only browser on iOS in the real sense, isn't really your friend either.

Apple is definitely not your friend if you refuse to get on board with prioritizing user privacy and security, just to put a reason behind it.
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