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Prisoners of Google Android development

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Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#71

Post by giantg2 »

jarm0 wrote: post #16
o1y32 wrote: post #10

> It's time to move back to open (web) standards and take control back into our own hands! Wait till you discover that the web is also half controlled by the company that is causing your problem now (Google). And Apple who owns Safari, the only browser on iOS in the real sense, isn't really your friend either.

Yeah, that's also true, but at least this kind of problems can be handled by a roll-back or whatnot. Situation we're currently are in does not allow to do anything while we know that bad build is in production and phones are updating to it automatically. That's the worst situation to be in.

Sure, you own the servers so you can rollback. You don't own a user's device. If you want to rollback after a full rollout, all you do is build your new/rollback release from your previously working commit and update your version number.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#72

Post by l72 »

lutarezj wrote: post #52
l72 wrote: post #51

I also got this email, but professionally and personally. Personally, I voluntarily built and run open source apps for 16 different cities for their transit system. This gave me two weeks to update 16 apps, for no benefit of anyone. My app is a PWA, and the Android version just uses cordova + a few plugins to add a few native options. Unfortunately, updating cordova to support the new target android api broke some of…

Not sure if it helps, but if I was in your situation I’d provide a few app updates with a screen to train users on how to install the PWA version and gracefully run away from these problems. Maybe also provide a some sort of a form to get some feedback over the difficulties encountered by users to get there. Good luck!

The problem is that many of my users are temporary. For example, I have an app for the public transit system for a resort town in Colorado. The town has a decent, albeit small bus system. They technically have an app from their vendor, although it is not very good and is difficult to find. If you search for "$town_name transit app", it won't show up anywhere, where as my app does. And I think my app is much more user friendly. I wrote it because I visit this area a lot and hated the vendor app.

My users are visiting this town for a few days, and are most likely going to open the app/play store and search for an app, use it for a few days, then leave the town and forget about it. The least amount of friction I can provide the better. My only goal is to support public transit and make it a smoother experience.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#73

Post by l72 »

TexanFeller wrote: post #68
l72 wrote: post #51

I also got this email, but professionally and personally. Personally, I voluntarily built and run open source apps for 16 different cities for their transit system. This gave me two weeks to update 16 apps, for no benefit of anyone. My app is a PWA, and the Android version just uses cordova + a few plugins to add a few native options. Unfortunately, updating cordova to support the new target android api broke some of…

> I'd prefer to get rid of the app and just have users go to the website and install the PWA, but the average user still doesn't know how to do this I think you misunderstood users, it's not just ignorance. I want apps to go back in the direction of real(not cordova) apps, not some low effort web thing. Basically zero web apps match the experience of a well crafted actual app.

I agree with you in many cases. At my professional company, we've made the decision to write native apps for Android, iOS, Windows, and the web, because we have pretty deep integration into each platform and want the best native experience for our users.

But, for my personal apps (which is what I am talking about in this thread), I can't support that. Writing it once and maintaining it takes up enough of my free time. This app also doesn't have any integration with the system, and has a minimal interface, so it works quite well as a web app.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#74

Post by donmcronald »

denton-scratch wrote: post #33

It was always obvious that Play Stores and their captive developer "communities" were a trap. Forced API upgrades are just one aspect of that. There are certainly tasks that are best done by a phone or mobile app; usually, these are things that involve moving around, such as navigation, or depend on phone sensors, such as working out which way is "up". But nearly everything else can be done by a website. I'd hate to…

> It was always obvious that Play Stores and their captive developer "communities" were a trap. Forced API upgrades are just one aspect of that.

I was convinced the app stores would be a flop because I didn’t think there would be a critical mass of developers that were willing to give up the guarantee they could actually deploy their apps.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#75

Post by withinboredom »

carstenhag wrote: post #57
l72 wrote: post #51

I also got this email, but professionally and personally. Personally, I voluntarily built and run open source apps for 16 different cities for their transit system. This gave me two weeks to update 16 apps, for no benefit of anyone. My app is a PWA, and the Android version just uses cordova + a few plugins to add a few native options. Unfortunately, updating cordova to support the new target android api broke some of…

I have compassion with you, some of my private apps were also affected. But we were being told this deadline for many months now. It was clear that at some point they would show it more in your face. I also disliked the way it was formulated, also, even if everything was fine in production, it complained when testing versions didn't comply (doesn't make sense). Also, it was always only about pushing new updates (it's…

This email was the first I'd ever heard of it.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#76

Post by BaseballPhysics »

l72 wrote: post #51

I also got this email, but professionally and personally. Personally, I voluntarily built and run open source apps for 16 different cities for their transit system. This gave me two weeks to update 16 apps, for no benefit of anyone. My app is a PWA, and the Android version just uses cordova + a few plugins to add a few native options. Unfortunately, updating cordova to support the new target android api broke some of…

> Truthfully, I'd prefer to get rid of the app and just have users go to the website and install the PWA, but the average user still doesn't know how to do this.

Let's be clear: that's not because users don't know how to do it. It's because Google and Apple haven't made it as easy as installing an app from their app store. That's a choice, and it's a deliberate one.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#77

Post by BaseballPhysics »

TexanFeller wrote: post #68
l72 wrote: post #51

I also got this email, but professionally and personally. Personally, I voluntarily built and run open source apps for 16 different cities for their transit system. This gave me two weeks to update 16 apps, for no benefit of anyone. My app is a PWA, and the Android version just uses cordova + a few plugins to add a few native options. Unfortunately, updating cordova to support the new target android api broke some of…

> I'd prefer to get rid of the app and just have users go to the website and install the PWA, but the average user still doesn't know how to do this I think you misunderstood users, it's not just ignorance. I want apps to go back in the direction of real(not cordova) apps, not some low effort web thing. Basically zero web apps match the experience of a well crafted actual app.

I used to think that, and then I started using Phanpy and Voyager. PWAs can be surprisingly good if they're done well. The problem is the mobile platforms have done nothing to optimize the experience or encourage their development and so the good examples are few and far between.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#78

Post by imchillyb »

jarm0 wrote: post #28
gumby wrote: post #25

This is a no-win situation. MS expends an inordinate amount of effort on back compatibility, and much kudos to them. But it vastly increases their attack surface. Likewise many of the worst things about the unfairly maligned C++ come from a hardcore position on back compatibility: as much as possible, old code, and even old C code, should continue to compile and work as expected, even to the point of linking old bina…

Yes, that's definitely one side of the problem and I'm not chasing too much backwards-compatibility. My biggest concern in this particular situation is that there is no way (with Android, at least) to pull-back/cancel/rollback release and everything is blocked behind Google's review process. Why isn't it just possible to "yank" problematic release and continue showing previous release as the latest version. That woul…

Rollbacks allow malicious actors to /simply-easily/ circumvent device security and user preference. To allow rollbacks is to /significantly/ increase the attack surface of a device.

Re: Prisoners of Google Android development

#79

Post by mnau »

giantg2 wrote: post #69

I mean, this is pretty much the paradigm for everything now. Angular versions go out of LTS in about 18 months, Android apps need an update in about the same timeframe, etc. Makes COBOL look like a dream - build a functional app that just works for 20 years.

Even .NET Core LTS is 3 years only (released every 2 years). Updates are pretty gradual and basically only add new features, but still.
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