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How was the size of Earth first measured? (2015)

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Re: How was the size of Earth first measured? (2015)

#51
post #8

Given the large distance between the cities, how did they communicate to confirm that the sun was indeed overhead at particular time and date?

They measured something at solar noon. This can be independently measured without communication and only requires to agree on the date. The key, really, was to be able to pick 2 locations on the same longitude and to have enough math/trigo to perform the calculation.

Note that they don't actually need to be on the same longitude. It just makes measuring the north/south distance between them a lot easier.

The angle between the sun and the zenith at local solar noon will be the same everywhere at a given latitude so that part doesn't care if the cities are on the same longitude..

You do need to know the north/south distance between the latitudes of the two cities, and picking two cities on the same longitude makes that easier to measure: just go straight from one to the other and note how far you traveled.

If the longitude was substantially different you'd have to use spherical trigonometry to figure out the north/south distance from the distance and bearing of the straight route between the cities, and for that you need to know the size of the sphere you are on.

Instead you'd have to do something like travel north from the southern city until you are at the same latitude as the other city (probably determined by observing the altitude of the North star), note how far you've traveled, then travel east or west along a line of constant latitude to try to reach the other city. If you miss the other city because you didn't get the latitude quite right, you'd have to move north or south, updating your north/south distance estimate, and try again, repeating until you actually hit the other city.

Re: How was the size of Earth first measured? (2015)

#52
post #6

Classic Carl Sagan clip relaying this story: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8hZl3arO7SY

This article had one detail that was not included in the video that had always bugged me. Carl says "how could it be .. that at the same instant there was no shadow at Syene and a very substantial shadow at Alexandria". That seemingly requires coordination between 2 people across a vast distance and accurate time measurement. I rationalized that it could be accomplished with people at each location, each with a sundi…

Another way to word it would be "the shortest shadow of the entire day"

Re: How was the size of Earth first measured? (2015)

#53
post #6

Classic Carl Sagan clip relaying this story: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8hZl3arO7SY

This article had one detail that was not included in the video that had always bugged me. Carl says "how could it be .. that at the same instant there was no shadow at Syene and a very substantial shadow at Alexandria". That seemingly requires coordination between 2 people across a vast distance and accurate time measurement. I rationalized that it could be accomplished with people at each location, each with a sundi…

> The other unresolved problem for me is that it still requires the assumption that light is parallel i.e. the sun is (relatively) incomprehensibly far away, and that was not established fact at the time afaik.

It seems like it very recently had been:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Sizes_and_Distances_(Ar...

There are some Stack Exchange questions that give more background:

https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/38892/how-did-...

https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/14722/how-did-eratos...

Pretty clever to use the illumination of the moon to figure it out!

Re: How was the size of Earth first measured? (2015)

#54
post #20

I always struggled (and still struggle) with math. A couple of years ago, randomly browsing YouTube, I came across this home made video asking how they figured out the distance to the moon before modern technology. The host starts out small scale showing he can calculate the distance to things in his back yard using trigonometry and then scales it up to the moon. My mind was blown, because no one ever told me that. I…

When I was in school everyone hated word problems, but to me, they were the most clear examples of the answer to "when will I ever use this". Sure, maybe you don't care that a train leaving New York traveling at 55mph while a car leaving Philly traveling at 35mph did any thing, but they were definitely real world examples.

I had a physics teacher that had a unique way of providing examples that always revolved around a little monkey that he liked to draw on the overhead. The monkey was usually on/in/near a tree, and we had to use those dreaded equations to figure out whatever was being asked. As dorky as it was, it definitely helped illustrate in way it sounds you never got. I always enjoyed his class, and he is definitely one of the three teachers I had that was on a different level from the rest. Each of those three teachers set me on a path of where I am now that none of the others did.

Re: How was the size of Earth first measured? (2015)

#56

"First" is awfully confident assertion about an event thousands of years ago. "Earliest known" is more accurate.

Doesn't "earliest" already imply "earliest known"? Since obviously we can't assert anything not known.

It doesn't imply it, no. There is an absolute true "first human measurement of Earth's size" and it is not fundamentally unlearnable at this point in history. It's just very difficult to prove and we are far from the due diligence necessary for such an extraordinary statement. It should be properly qualified until we piece together a pretty complete picture of lost civilizations.

Re: How was the size of Earth first measured? (2015)

#57
post #20

I always struggled (and still struggle) with math. A couple of years ago, randomly browsing YouTube, I came across this home made video asking how they figured out the distance to the moon before modern technology. The host starts out small scale showing he can calculate the distance to things in his back yard using trigonometry and then scales it up to the moon. My mind was blown, because no one ever told me that. I…

You may be interested in an Astrophysics course. I took one in college taught by an Astronomy professor and was surprised most of the content was focused on what we could determine about stars, galaxies and such based on what we could measure from them. In retrospect that seems obvious but I guess I had assumed the content would be like really heavy theories of stellar formation or gravity or something.

In my course we basically progressed from the traditional OG methods of measurement to increasingly sophisticated methods. It’s amazing how much you can learn about stars and galaxies just from combining models of black body radiation, spectral lines, and red shift with the wavelengths of the light they emit.

Re: How was the size of Earth first measured? (2015)

#58

I have to wonder what he thought when he got his answer. Was it much bigger than he thought? Did he wonder what was on the other side?

I'm glad I'm not the only one where my mind splits from the rest of the group and goes off in tangential directions.

One of the video links here explaining triangulation to calculate distances showed examples with one of the grand canyon measurements. I stopped paying attention, and started wondering what the first person to find the grand canyon thought. "shit, I guess we've got to go around THAT!?!?"

Re: How was the size of Earth first measured? (2015)

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't "earliest" already imply "earliest known"? Since obviously we can't assert anything not known.

It doesn't imply it, no. There is an absolute true "first human measurement of Earth's size" and it is not fundamentally unlearnable at this point in history. It's just very difficult to prove and we are far from the due diligence necessary for such an extraordinary statement. It should be properly qualified until we piece together a pretty complete picture of lost civilizations.

Of course it's fundamentally unlearnable.

No matter what we do know, we can never prove there wasn't someone else who figured it out even earlier but never wrote it down, or they did but it and all references to it were lost.

Most "firsts" carry an implicit asterisk that isn't worth mentioning. The first person to run a 4 minute mile did so in 1954. With the asterisk that somebody else might have already done that millennia ago but didn't have a stopwatch. And we'll never know.

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