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The EU's war on behavioral advertising

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Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#371

As a lawyer working on these topics, this is a poor phrasing. EU regulators don't need to "war" with advertisers - they have complete control over them. There's no other side of this war, just regulators issuing commands that industry tries to follow. It's confusing as a war is because the regulators decided not to make the law say, 'behavioral advertising is illegal,' and instead have spent years slowly awakening to…

> There's no other side of this war, just regulators issuing commands that industry tries to follow.

Data aggregators and advertisers don't have agency?

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#372

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

> The issue is not advertising, the issue is the construction, classification and use of human profiles through the collection of behavioral data, by-and-large without the subjects being aware or cognizant of the possible short and long-term implications.

I don't disagree that collection of data isn't bad, but two things:

1. The collection of data isn't the goal, the advertising is. The data is only practically valuable to do advertising better (and of course for surveillance, but I suspect the market for data for surveillance is orders of magnitude smaller). If you kill the advertising, you kill the need for data. If you kill the data, the advertisers will just find other ways to make their advertising convert better.

2. We should all be outraged at the idea of corporations using psychological tricks to influence our behavior. The human mind was not pentested before shipping to production. Some ads just remind you that a product exists, but many try to create positive associations to make the product more appealing or to make you think of it later.

We just let this happen and don't care. Mostly because we don't really notice it working. You don't think "oh yeah, I'll buy the name brand paper towels because I saw that commercial", you just buy them because they're the ones that your brain has an association with cleaning up the whole dribble of blue liquid. Of course you'll buy the one that works. Our brains are unpatched Linux kernels and advertisers are botnets.

Like, be outraged at the data mining and selling. But be more outraged at why it's happening.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#373

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

> the collective will of an entire continent

If you ask the average man on the content "would you like your behaviour tracked?" he will indeed reply "No!"

But if you ask him "If you have to choose between seeing ads for women's clothing or ads relevant to your interest, which would you choose?", then he will pick the option that requires behavioural tracking.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#374
post #326
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actually ridiculous part is not that. It’s the fact that our browsers don’t solve this issue in a standardized way. Everyone who serves HTTP in the Eu and includes third party tracking, shows you an idiosyncratic consent banner. Often these things download a large amount of JS as well. That’s completely and utterly idiotic. - It’s confusing for users. - It interrupts the user’s flow everytime they visit a site. -…

>Nobody wins. You just described regulations.

Without regulations I'd need to grow my own food, though.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question. Let me first answer the meta question that i see all the time, from someone who studies systems science. There’s a supposed “crisis” with the scaling of X that involves millions or billions of people, and our largest societal institutions. Here’s a simple folksy example of x that’s not really much of a problem, how is that different from X? The answer is always the same, because scale matters, always.…

Further (replying to my own comment), watch The Social Dilemma on Netflix. I almost didn’t watch it because I thought I’ve heard it all before. But it really shocks the conscious when you see it all laid out clearly with strong real world examples - building from the mental health crisis, to the culture wars, to the erosion of worldwide democracy writ large - all driven by the power of adtech.

To be honest, personally I’d argue for a stronger stance: the right to not be solicited. I think all advertising is poisonous and insidious and leads to the things you describe, not just targeted behavioral profiling. So I’d say the missing right that we need to codify lies somewhere in that realm.

Still I think we’re a little stuck on the consent bit. If 98% of society consents to be solicited, all the problems of scale come back. So we need a framework to declare that the power granted to solicitation networks, if centralized, is too great and either reserve it for the gov’t or ideally outlaw it.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#376

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

> The issue is not advertising, the issue is the construction, classification and use of human profiles through the collection of behavioral data, by-and-large without the subjects being aware or cognizant of the possible short and long-term implications. I don't disagree that collection of data isn't bad, but two things: 1. The collection of data isn't the goal, the advertising is. The data is only practically valua…

I too see issues with advertising as such. It has created an unsatiable society that cannot find balance even though it churns through an ever growing slice of the planet. But I feel it is a longer term problem about how to organize markets and disseminate product availability in a less manipulative way. In a strange way the internet is actually a pull medium that should orient people more towards seeking information rather than being pushed stuff. In a sense the walled gardens and the timelines aim to replicate a push relationship (that was at its heyday during the TV era).

But I really think the risks from personal data based profiling are more serious and broad based. If these practises get normalized for adtech they are normalized, period. Every industry will want to get in the act. Car manufacturers will want to grab and sell behavior, supermarkets, banks, toothbrushes, fridges, thermostats and doorbells will want to do the same.

But ultimately I think we might be agreeing on the why things are happening as thus underlies everything: Unhinged pursuit of profit (= claims on society) without any care about the impact on that same society.

The various risks we are discussing will only keep multiplying and aggravating if we dont find more effective harnesses to channel these behaviors towards more positive goals.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#377

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

> the collective will of an entire continent If you ask the average man on the content "would you like your behaviour tracked?" he will indeed reply "No!" But if you ask him "If you have to choose between seeing ads for women's clothing or ads relevant to your interest, which would you choose?", then he will pick the option that requires behavioural tracking.

I don’t think that’s true, I think most people would actually choose to have adverts that are irrelevant, much easier to tune them out if the signal to noise ratio is low. I think most people don’t like or want adverts in their lives at all.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#378

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

> the collective will of an entire continent If you ask the average man on the content "would you like your behaviour tracked?" he will indeed reply "No!" But if you ask him "If you have to choose between seeing ads for women's clothing or ads relevant to your interest, which would you choose?", then he will pick the option that requires behavioural tracking.

The case you describe can be served with contextual ads, no need to know anything more than what I have searched for just now.

No history, no fingerprinting, no profile that follows me everywhere, that gets sold, stolen, triangulated and potentially used against me without me even even knowing.

Maybe I take human history too seriously. Maybe others are morally bankrupt and will try mental and moral somersaults to justify their stance. You judge.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#379

As a lawyer working on these topics, this is a poor phrasing. EU regulators don't need to "war" with advertisers - they have complete control over them. There's no other side of this war, just regulators issuing commands that industry tries to follow. It's confusing as a war is because the regulators decided not to make the law say, 'behavioral advertising is illegal,' and instead have spent years slowly awakening to…

The megacorporations are at war against humanity and won't stop until forced: they must profit and grow at the expense of civilization, climate, and biosphere. It's true the EU does not recognize it's in a war yet but they are at least trying to slow them down. The US is further behind.

Replace megacorp with capitalist and humanity with workers and you got a perfect foundation for a communist revolution.

Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#380

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

> the collective will of an entire continent If you ask the average man on the content "would you like your behaviour tracked?" he will indeed reply "No!" But if you ask him "If you have to choose between seeing ads for women's clothing or ads relevant to your interest, which would you choose?", then he will pick the option that requires behavioural tracking.

I think he’d probably prefer to not see the ad altogether. Who actually wants advertising besides the people attempting to sell things.
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