Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The EU's war on behavioral advertising

thisisunpacked.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 420 posts

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#361

Post by zenapollo »

dcow wrote: post #356
nologic01 wrote: post #344

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

Let’s play devils advocate for a moment: Why should I be able to control what someone else knows about me? Seriously? If you sit in a park bench and watch me running around on a hot day I can’t compel you to “forget I was there”. And if you use that knowledge as data to support opening a lemonade stand, and even to reach out to me directly and offer a discount on cold drinks, who is being socially harmed? Where is th…

Great question. Let me first answer the meta question that i see all the time, from someone who studies systems science. There’s a supposed “crisis” with the scaling of X that involves millions or billions of people, and our largest societal institutions. Here’s a simple folksy example of x that’s not really much of a problem, how is that different from X? The answer is always the same, because scale matters, always.

In this case, here’s why scale matters. We know these ads work. On an individual basis let’s say you have a 0.31% chance of buying a thing you wouldn’t have otherwise. On this individual scale it seems like no big deal, certainly no amoral or unethical undue influence. On a massive scale however a 0.31% increase makes the advertiser a lot. AND there’s a network effect because desire is contagious, so the more people that buy, the more others will want - double winner. Now let’s say there’s a organization that wants to push some new technology into people’s lives, let’s say voice assistant smart speakers. At scale this doesn’t just sell smart speakers, now 5% of homes have one, and this now has the power to fundamentally change a small slice of culture more broadly as it becomes more common, ubiquitous, and relied upon. And the drift in a small slice of culture drifts the ultimate the trajectory of our civilization - simply by using small but statistically proven edge to influence people. Not to mention in this case, it further entrenches this power of corporate data collection and influence! And now, imagine instead of selling smart speakers, an organization wants to push a political idea, let’s say for example, that democracy is an conspiracy built by elite bankers. I think you can see where this goes.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#362

Post by bigbillheck »

nceqs3 wrote: post #175
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TL:DR of GDPR is "just don't drack your users without their consent". Why is that difficult for US corporations to follow? Even '90s web was by default GDPR complaint.

Yes, the huge and profitable 90s web.

Plenty of people were making money off the internet in the 90s.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#363

Post by orthoxerox »

dcow wrote: post #356
nologic01 wrote: post #344

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

Let’s play devils advocate for a moment: Why should I be able to control what someone else knows about me? Seriously? If you sit in a park bench and watch me running around on a hot day I can’t compel you to “forget I was there”. And if you use that knowledge as data to support opening a lemonade stand, and even to reach out to me directly and offer a discount on cold drinks, who is being socially harmed? Where is th…

It's the passage of quantitative changes into qualitative changes. It's one thing if a single lemonade stand keeps track of its customers. When the same lemonade stand can almost instantly access its customers' complete life history, it's a completely different thing.

Imagine being hailed by a random lemonade vendor, "Hello Mr. dcow, I have some cold lemonade for you! It's sugar-free, so don't worry about your diabetes. I can even put it on your tab, since I know you've never been late with your payments and you pass through here every Saturday"

It sure might be convenient, but that doesn't make it less creepy.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#364

Post by zenapollo »

zenapollo wrote: post #361
dcow wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s play devils advocate for a moment: Why should I be able to control what someone else knows about me? Seriously? If you sit in a park bench and watch me running around on a hot day I can’t compel you to “forget I was there”. And if you use that knowledge as data to support opening a lemonade stand, and even to reach out to me directly and offer a discount on cold drinks, who is being socially harmed? Where is th…

Great question. Let me first answer the meta question that i see all the time, from someone who studies systems science. There’s a supposed “crisis” with the scaling of X that involves millions or billions of people, and our largest societal institutions. Here’s a simple folksy example of x that’s not really much of a problem, how is that different from X? The answer is always the same, because scale matters, always.…

Further (replying to my own comment), watch The Social Dilemma on Netflix. I almost didn’t watch it because I thought I’ve heard it all before. But it really shocks the conscious when you see it all laid out clearly with strong real world examples - building from the mental health crisis, to the culture wars, to the erosion of worldwide democracy writ large - all driven by the power of adtech.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#365

Post by nologic01 »

dcow wrote: post #356
nologic01 wrote: post #344

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

Let’s play devils advocate for a moment: Why should I be able to control what someone else knows about me? Seriously? If you sit in a park bench and watch me running around on a hot day I can’t compel you to “forget I was there”. And if you use that knowledge as data to support opening a lemonade stand, and even to reach out to me directly and offer a discount on cold drinks, who is being socially harmed? Where is th…

Try going around a park photographing what everyone is doing. Further, start giving selectively (to kids and other vulnerable people) lollipops in exchange for them identifying everybody in their friends and family circle by name. At best you would be chased out of the park. At worst you would be lynched.

The cry to identify "real harm" is insidius and malevolent. There have already been documented instances of political manipulation. Given the opaque nature of the sector and the massive leverage it affords its very likely this was just the tip of the iceberg. Risk management is not just making sure you dont die of food poissoning today. It is also about avoiding that heart attack that will come decades early.

Again, its not about the act of advertising as such. It is the behavioral profiling that is the toxic practice. What grave harm can behavioral profiling possibly insert into policing, medicine, finance, education, relations with state and corporate employers etc? Its not even a rhetorical question. Its a societal disaster of historic proportions.

The moral bankruptcy of the adtech industry is not just the original sin of rolling this practice out, but, (after they have been outed) to pretend that they have this under control. That it is a sandboxed environment. It is not. The digital domain is interconnected and leaky. Economic and political dynamics is unpredictable and all the above mentioned domains come into play with adtech itching to expand its reach.

Its not a "new right" that people to defend, the framing is again odius. Who gave the right to certain entities to institute mass surveillance? They simply abused the lack of regulation. Moved fast and broke things.

At stake are fundamental questions about human agency, transparency and accountability of the actions of organised enterprise (and public sector), and the very nature of our social systems as we move deeper into the digital era.

The start of that era is certainly dystopic-looking with unscrupulous private sector and captured governments. The major question is if the (unexpected to be honest) principled stance of the European Union will help boot into an alternative operating system.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#366

Post by dijksterhuis »

dcow wrote: post #356
nologic01 wrote: post #344

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

Let’s play devils advocate for a moment: Why should I be able to control what someone else knows about me? Seriously? If you sit in a park bench and watch me running around on a hot day I can’t compel you to “forget I was there”. And if you use that knowledge as data to support opening a lemonade stand, and even to reach out to me directly and offer a discount on cold drinks, who is being socially harmed? Where is th…

> If you sit in a park bench and watch me running around on a hot day I can’t compel you to “forget I was there”.

I will naturally forget because I’m a human with fuzzy memory / storage.

I am not an highly consistent, available and resilient database which will store the information for the next 5 / 10 / 15 / 30 / N years.

Appreciate this is a bit of a nit pick on your argument, but I feel it is also important because it highlights the massive risk / impact difference.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#367

Post by GeekyBear »

dcow wrote: post #360
GeekyBear wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I be able to control what someone else knows about me? Why should companies be allowed to relentlessly spy on everything you do without your consent? For instance, Google literally buys a copy of everyone's credit/debit card transaction data. > as Google said in a blog post on its new service for marketers, it has partnered with “third parties” that give them access to 70 percent of all credit and debit…

Note that the GGP is arguing a stronger stance: that no amount of consent makes this okay. You’re saying “it’s okay with consent”. You’re taking a weaker stance, one which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but that’s besides the point.

This is the stance the EU has taken. The Surveillance Capitalism business model requires informed consent.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#368

Post by umate »

zenapollo wrote: post #361
dcow wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s play devils advocate for a moment: Why should I be able to control what someone else knows about me? Seriously? If you sit in a park bench and watch me running around on a hot day I can’t compel you to “forget I was there”. And if you use that knowledge as data to support opening a lemonade stand, and even to reach out to me directly and offer a discount on cold drinks, who is being socially harmed? Where is th…

Great question. Let me first answer the meta question that i see all the time, from someone who studies systems science. There’s a supposed “crisis” with the scaling of X that involves millions or billions of people, and our largest societal institutions. Here’s a simple folksy example of x that’s not really much of a problem, how is that different from X? The answer is always the same, because scale matters, always.…

i would also recommend the podcast called “Undivided Attention” from the same authors

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#369

Post by frereubu »

uoaei wrote: post #336
developer93 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I nearly always take the time to scroll through and untick all the permissions, or find a different site because screw them, that's why. I realise I'm in the minority.

GDPR mandates that they are all already unchecked except for the so-called "essential" or "functional" ones.

I wish I had more time and / or money because this is commonly ignored, and I would love to take all organisations who don't abide by this to court just for the hell of it. Many times it's under the guise of "legitimate interest" under a separate unselected tab and I would love to test that in court.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#370

Post by specialist »

dcow wrote: post #356
nologic01 wrote: post #344

So many words to defend the indefensible. Its not a "war", it is asserting the collective will of an entire continent (made up of fairly diverse cultures and a long history of painful social strife, political and racial oppression and persecution). The aim is to close Pandora's box that was (as it happened) opened by the amoral and asocial advertising industry that cannot see beyond its (admittedly long) nose. The is…

Let’s play devils advocate for a moment: Why should I be able to control what someone else knows about me? Seriously? If you sit in a park bench and watch me running around on a hot day I can’t compel you to “forget I was there”. And if you use that knowledge as data to support opening a lemonade stand, and even to reach out to me directly and offer a discount on cold drinks, who is being socially harmed? Where is th…

> Why should I be able to control what someone else knows about me?

The right to privacy is:

- complete sovereignty over oneself, including data about oneself

- control over public knowledge about oneself

In other words: I am my data, my data is me. I own myself.

To deny my fundamental right to privacy is to deny my personhood, to deny my membership in a society of equals.

--

It's corny, but I sometimes liken privacy to the "true name" plot device. In fantasy, knowing a person's "true name" gives one power over them. In sci-fi, the "true name" would be something like a password or root private key.

Post reply on HN