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Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

theregister.com

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Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#91

Post by iraqmtpizza »

elif wrote: post #73
firtoz wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Explaining why this was way off-piste, the DoJ said in a statement yesterday: "Under these regulations, asylees, refugees, lawful permanent residents, US citizens and US nationals working at US companies can access export-controlled items without authorization from the US government. Therefore, these laws do not require SpaceX to treat asylees and refugees differently than US citizens or green card holders."

Yeah... But spaceX does have to face the consequences if one of them ends up being a foreign intelligence asset. Seems like a reasonable precaution to me considering the stakes. Besides, they have the largest applicant pool of any company in the country. It's completely reasonable to believe this is purely a consequence of meritocracy and not even a conscious choice.

how much secret information is SpaceX really getting from the federal government? probably near nothing

Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#92

Post by iraqmtpizza »

perihelions wrote: post #81
JackFr wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s utterly malicious on the part of the government. Note the only complainant on the lawsuit is the Justice department, who have standing as part of the law. No one harmed individual is suing SpaceX. The idea that SpaceX is pursuing some invidious scheme of anti-immigrant discrimination is ludicrous. If you read the complaint, every incident DOJ cites really appears to be a good faith attempt to comply with ITAR ru…

- "No one harmed individual is suing SpaceX." I think it is right and proper that low-income victims of labor law crimes don't need to be able to afford attorneys to resolve grievances, and that there exist public institutions that litigate on their behalf, for free.

The DoJ should not be representing non-citizens against citizens. This is not in dispute.

Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#93

Post by surfpel »

Detrytus wrote: post #83
Nullabillity wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think rocket scientists are just… immune to war?

I think that rocket scientists are usually cherished by totalitarian regimes, not persecuted.

That’s a narrow view of where refugees come from. Also doesn’t consider that they can become a talented rocket scientist after becoming a refugee.

Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#94

Post by iraqmtpizza »

wrp wrote: post #27
tpmx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the DOJ's complaint. Seems to me like it could become quite expensive. https://www.justice.gov/media/1311656/dl?inline THEREFORE, Complainant respectfully requests: ... Order SpaceX to hire applicants who were victims of the discriminatory practices alleged in this Complaint and were qualified for employment; Order SpaceX to pay back pay, including interest, and all other relief available to each individual disc…

Would the burden be on the applicants to prove they definitely would have been hired if not for the discrimination?

In a sane world, yes. It could be different in clown world, though, so it is best to consult an attorney which specializes in these matters.

Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#95

Post by perihelions »

iraqmtpizza wrote: post #92
perihelions wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- "No one harmed individual is suing SpaceX." I think it is right and proper that low-income victims of labor law crimes don't need to be able to afford attorneys to resolve grievances, and that there exist public institutions that litigate on their behalf, for free.

The DoJ should not be representing non-citizens against citizens. This is not in dispute.

The DoJ should enforce laws within in its jurisdiction, and that should not be in dispute. Your suggestion that they turn a blind eye to crimes committed against victims belonging to a certain category is odious and lacking civic principles.

Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#96

Post by ethanbond »

stevofolife wrote: post #85
culturestate wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Von Braun was a Nazi spy He came to the US after the war in Europe was over. Pretty difficult to spy on behalf of a political regime that no longer exists. If he was spying for anyone - which I don’t think has ever been seriously alleged, let alone proven - it would’ve been the USSR.

All kinds of spies in all kinds of projects existed in American history. SpaceX being a relatively new organization and the roles they hire are both not immune to this. For example, “Klaus Emil Julius Fuchs (29 December 1911 – 28 January 1988) was a German theoretical physicist and atomic spy who supplied information from the American, British and Canadian Manhattan Project to the Soviet Union during and shortly afte…

GP didn’t claim spies don’t exist. They claimed spies for regimes that don’t exist don’t exist.

Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#97

Post by Detrytus »

throwaway290 wrote: post #90
Detrytus wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that rocket scientists are usually cherished by totalitarian regimes, not persecuted.

If you are smart enough to be a rocket scientist you are more likely to be smart enough to see when your country is being ruled by thieves and going to the dogs. Either you hide it and leave ASAP, you don't hide it and try to change your country for the better (= jail, regime doesn't like people like that) or you suppress your conscience (or not have it) and enjoy a nice lifestyle. The last option is more rare becaus…

>> The last option is more rare because smart people are less susceptible to propaganda

This is actually bullshit, you can easily manipulate smart person, by appealing to their perceived smartness :)

Anyway, just because someone is smart does not mean that they are also highly moral. It's often like: give a person opportunity for professional growth ("you'll be working on our moon landing program") and they will sell their own mother.

EDIT: tangentially related https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/01/why-smart-peop...

Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#98

Post by iraqmtpizza »

perihelions wrote: post #95
iraqmtpizza wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DoJ should not be representing non-citizens against citizens. This is not in dispute.

The DoJ should enforce laws within in its jurisdiction, and that should not be in dispute. Your suggestion that they turn a blind eye to crimes committed against victims belonging to a certain category is odious and lacking civic principles.

[flagged]

Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#99

Post by havnagiggle »

JackFr wrote: post #72
csydas wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a punishment for punishment's sake, individuals were allegedly affected by SpaceX's incorrect (and apparently illegal) policy, and they lodged a complaint via the official channels. https://www.justice.gov/media/1311656/dl?inline There are 17 specific examples of instances where Musk/SpaceX were publicly and repeatedly disseminating incorrect information about their hiring requirements (sections 34-51), the…

It’s utterly malicious on the part of the government. Note the only complainant on the lawsuit is the Justice department, who have standing as part of the law. No one harmed individual is suing SpaceX. The idea that SpaceX is pursuing some invidious scheme of anti-immigrant discrimination is ludicrous. If you read the complaint, every incident DOJ cites really appears to be a good faith attempt to comply with ITAR ru…

Well, the lawsuit would probably be much simpler now.

Re: Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment

#100

Post by pc_edwin »

moron4hire wrote: post #87
pc_edwin wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every company that has to follow ITAR does this. Its simply not feasible to determine and continuously monitor the legibility of asylees and refugees. Set aside how expensive it will be, you will inevitably end up breaking ITAR laws which is significantly worse.

It's... not expensive at all? Companies don't do their own investigations. The FBI does them, and they charge the same rate for everyone. If the clearance application fee is what's going to break your company, you've got some bigger problems. I've worked for several DoD contractors. The question on the job application is "is there anything that would prevent you from obtaining a clearance?" It's not "are you a citize…

In this case its not about clearance, its about immigration status.

I'm not an expert on any of this but my understanding is you can work straight away as a refugee with a pending status. This is fine for normal companies but it gets very tricky for companies under ITAR.

If the asylum application gets rejected, the work the person did when on pending status could be a violation. All the work they do after rejection would be an ITAR violation (so the company would have continuously monitor status).

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