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66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

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Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#161
post #7

As much as I like my vacations, I would rather prefer US salary over it.

Does the US salary hold up against the benefits you get in a well-off EU country? Namely free healthcare, automatic payments into pension fund, strong social system if you're ever in trouble, etc.? It seems to me that, as high as US salaries are, they arent that much higher compared to European salaries when you factor all this in, plus the face that a month of that work youre paid for youre OOO

I've lived in both USA and Germany. For highly skilled tech labor, US is so much better that there's no point comparing. Still, let me attempt to:

- Salary caps in the USA are orders of magnitude higher than in EU. You can easily find senior engineers that make 400K a year in total compensation and principals/staff engineers 700K+. These numbers are unheard of in EU.

- Income tax rates range from lower (even in high-tax states like California) to vastly lower (Texas, Washington state). Even if you find that unheard of European job paying 400K euro a year, you'll be donating 50% of that income to the tax man. In the US, you could be looking at 25% for the same income.

- Employer-funded health insurance is generally good across the board and can be absolutely top notch.

- Private pension schemes like 401K are partly funded by employers with generous rates and are 100% owned by you. There can be no "means testing" or "reduction of benefits" by the state in the future.

- In addition to private pension schemes partly funded by employers, there's social security which can be seen as a public pension that's funded by federal taxes. Current social security payouts given typical tech salaries exceed every European public pension scheme I'm aware of. Even if social security completely disappears in the coming decades, a good engineer in the US will be a multi-millionaire by retirement time.

- Early retirement in one's 40s or early 50s should be an option for a significant percentage of USA software engineers. This is unheard of in EU where one's expected to work until one reaches retirement age.

So there's really nothing that a well-off EU country can compete in vs USA, benefits-wise.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#162
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bachelor + Masters is 10 semesters usually. 1000 * 12 * 5 = 60.000. Well in the range that I quoted. And depending on the city the actual costs can be more.

Ah, but then your first comment is highly misleading, because when you talk number, readers assume cost per year. You are basically saying that living in Europe in a university city cost anything between 6000 and 20000 euros each year. Maybe a bit high, but I think I can agree. But living is a cost all around the world, and universities in Europe add a very low overhead on top of it, while universities in US can easi…

Really? I never thought that could possibly be interpreted as cost per year. I can clarify that.

My point is that the statement that salaries can be low because university has no cost is wrong. The cost is significant even without tuition and therefore salaries absolutely matter.

And without even a shred of doubt, a US tech salary of supposedly around 150k compared to perhaps 80k in Germany more than balances the extra costs for university over a time of 20 years that the kids grow up.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#163

Regardless of what you think, in the best path is being an eu citizen, work in us(some high paying job like IT) for 5-10 years, return in eu with huge cash, buy a home, work some more chill years for minimal pension and happily retire. Eu is nice to retire if you are eu citizen and have enough cash(by either working some years in us or remotely for us conpanies but a bit less pay)

Agreed. It's a good strategy to benefit from the "free" education for both you and your kids.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#164

It has been shown that you need around 14 days of interrupted rest to recover from stress etc. The European laws are not some random thing we made up because we are lazy. It is to ensure workers are well rested and ready for a new working year. Hence in long term it will also benefit employers. Some personal anecdata: I notice an immediate difference when I come back after a long vacation. The first 2-3 months I work…

>The European laws are not some random thing we made up because we are lazy. It is to ensure workers are well rested and ready for a new working year.

If that was true Europe would have the highest productivity of the world, but it doesn't.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#165
post #4

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in…

When I first joined a US startup, they said "you can take unlimited PTO -- we suggest starting with a week per year"... I negotiated that up to the five weeks that are standard here in Denmark.

For unlimited PTO, I always like to ask “what are the median number of days taken?”

If they don’t know, that’s a red flag. Id expect it to be about 20-25 if it also includes sick leave. 30-40 means people really take the policy seriously.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#166
post #4

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in…

Important to note though that the minimum in Germany is "only" 20 days annually for 5 working day weeks.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free as in I can get flown to the ER without having to worry to go bankrupt. Strong social system as in you get 60% of your salary if you go unemployed for s year. Im not sure you realize that lots of things you pay are for the chance something doesnt go as planned in your life. Ofc its better to live in the US from a financial standpoint if everything works out and you never get sick or unemployed etc

All US full time positions include health insurance, the insurance included with a good software job is, in my experience, miles and miles better than the one I now get in Scandinavia.

That’s great until you get laid off. The added stress of job hunting while also hoping nothing happens to your health until you’re fully employed again can’t be easy.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long is that long term because there aren't that many great European companies.

I count 10 European companies on this list, and 20 US. Maybe is not as bad as you think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_r...

I only count 6. Switzerland and the UK are not part of the EU. (The article is about the EU, not Europe)

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#169
Everyone starts to compare quality of live and salaries in America vs. Europe.

But you are missing the biggest point! Not everyone is working in IT. And a ton of people do not make $200k+/year.

We're in a group that is very well paid. But most are not. And for them European vacation policies or a social system that doesn't ruin you when you are ill are a big difference.

Everone working it IT is speaking from within an ivory tower.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#170
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parents have to pay for university in Europe unless they are poor. And while there are no fees, the costs are typically between 30k and 100k per child. edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know. edit2: Someone said this comment could be interpreted as the cost per year which is not the case. This is the total cost.

Places like the Netherlands and Switzerland generally pay around €2k a year for all students. The only place I know of anywhere near that price is the UK.

That would be England and Wales. The countries of the UK have different education systems.
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