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The EU's war on behavioral advertising

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Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote a reply but since it became too long, posted it as a comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37266563

That was an interesting comparison of behavioral vs non-behavioral ads, thanks. But my question was geared towards the value of advertising itself, in general (if there is any). I am aware of the unknown unknown problem you mentioned (I think), but in my experience as a layman, very very rarely (if ever) was I introduced to a great product or service through advertising that I wouldn't be aware of in other ways. Conv…

Thanks, this does mirror my experience in many ways so I'll try to reply to each of your points. In my comment, I did talk about the value of advertising itself (not just contextual/behavioural).

Regarding your experience, a lot of advertising is retargeting or keeping the brand alive in the minds of buyers or remind them constantly (since humans are forgetful). This statistically increases the probability of purchases made amongst a cohort (very measurable). Personally, I think this is user-hostile and is a strong case for having more control over the kinds of ads we're exposed to or limit/penalise harmful ones. Taken to the extreme (going on a slight tangent here), if we really owned/controlled our devices and software, which means having control over consumption, we'd block all ads which would incentivise platforms to remove the distinction between content and ads and we'd do more content filtering on the client (This is however computationally inefficient, a sort of arms race).

Regarding influencing behaviour, it's a lot more efficient to match the right seller to the right buyer rather than influence buyer behaviour (which is hard). However, to achieve that extra marginal gains/returns on ad spend, advertisers often do attempt to change buyer behaviour (through building brand associations, retargeting etc). Again, better user control would help here.

Agree on street ads and other public real world ads as there is no consent here (Real world movement is a need, not a choice).

Regarding ads vs word-of-mouth, Ads really are very effective for many people, in a measurable way, both quantitative and qualitative. It of course will differ from person to person.

Regarding increased inefficiency and effect on the economy more generally, ads actually increase efficiency in the system as long as they are not rent-seeking (i.e. pay to jump the queue) or user-hostile. Eg: It helps many niche businesses reach customers which are otherwise very hard to reach (due to geographical or novelty constraints). Taken to the extreme, all value gained from advertising will ultimately flow to the ad platforms. Even in this extreme case, overall consumption increases (due to buyers buying more) as well as competition (due to many more competitive small businesses, innovators dilemma theory) which is good for a capitalist economy (i.e. makes it more dynamic in both choice and inequality) and increases GDP (a poor metric).

As an aside, it's also a progressive tax (I.e rich and poor both consume the same good but advertisers pay more to reach the rich, thus funding the good for the poor).

Some extreme opinions below on the fundamentals:

Even in localist/anarchist/decentralised utopias, ads won't die (especially personalised). It's a fundamental need of humans and the only other form of payment (apart from paying for compute itself) that doesn't depend on a system of violence to enforce it. As long as there exists economies of scale, there will be marketing (to increase consumption and hence cheapening it per capita i.e. use less labor), and hence advertising (to solve the unknown-unknown problem or presenting/impressing).

i.e. Even when we eliminate competitive enterprise, build localised production of needs, and have full control of our devices, if we want to build something cheaply or spread an idea, we'd have to advertise. It would look a lot more like "advertising on the merits" with full user control though considering human nature, there will also be a lot of "advertising focused on presentation".

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#264

Uh... hmmm. I work in the industry and this article is very even handed but still a bit off. We don't really have have a term for "behavioral" advertising. So a lot of things are being lumped together that don't necessarily fit. For example, Facebook USED to be highly valued because of the amount of "targeting" (again, we don't use the term "behavioral") data they had. When you went to tell FB what you liked and didn…

Could you give me a source for: `(it doesn't hurt that economically, consumer wealth in Europe is falling like a rock).`

Where in Europe is consumer wealth falling, by how much, and why is this a trend?

I could say the same about the US or Brazil or any other place, barring a source.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TL:DR of GDPR is "just don't drack your users without their consent". Why is that difficult for US corporations to follow? Even '90s web was by default GDPR complaint.

I've implemented gdpr. It's much more than that.

Don’t set cookies. Don’t capture Personal data. You’re 90% there.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#266
post #249
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You make an excellent point about the EU surveillance laws. They clearly don’t give a shit about privacy. None of the folks disagreeing ITT seem to be willing to discuss that point. You can be for privacy and against survailance. Often the politicians who work to implement data protection laws and politicians who work to increase survailance come from opposite sites of the political middle. So it's not really a ver…

> You can be for privacy and against survailance. Is this a typo? Of course you can they’re literally opposites. You’re performing mental gymnastics if you think that the EU is somehow “pro privacy” just because they created cookie banners via GDPR. State sponsored surveillance is FAR worse than corporate sponsored surveillance.

The EU didn’t create those banners. HN doesn’t have such banners.

The companies tried to track you created those banners.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#267
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infinite money glitch for big tech, with dramatic externalities pushed to non-consenting general population. These externalities include death of traditional media, extreme levels of political polarization, and climbing suicide rate of teenagers, girls in particular. These things are caused in very large part by the big tech companies maximizing consumption of ads, and efficiency of ads targeting.

The only non-consenting advertising I can think of is public billboards - and I believe those should be banned, most definitely. Every single other type of advertising requires your explicit consent. YouTube? Google? Newspapers? All have your consent.

This is actually a good point.

I can’t avoid billboards. But I can trivially avoid FB/Google/YT etc.

I can also use things like uBlock.

The internet is open and inherently client focused. That’s a huge feature. We’re ultimately in control.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make sense to me. You make it sound like a rosy cooperative relationship where advertisers want to follow the rules and regulators just haven't made them. Even so, regulation isn't "complete control" in any way. It seems more like the advertisers are always going to try to make the advertisements as effective as possible while toeing the letter of the law as closely as possible and ignoring the spirit of…

I'm saying the laws EU has released are too complex and indirect and cost too much money, and that if they wanted to ban behavioral advertising outright they should have and could have done that instead of what they have done.

This papers over the realities a bit too much.

If they were to “ban behavioural advertising”, then advertisers would simply rebrand it: “oh no it’s not behavioural advertising, it’s ’interest-centric’ advertising, completely different”.

The point is to ban it in “spirit” not in “letter”, because a ban in the lette would simply get lawyered around and end up not being worth the paper it’s written on.

The advertisers know that these regulations ban behavioural advertising effectively, which is why their immediate tactic is to decry the wording as “too hard” and “too confusing”. This is an obfuscation tactic. Like with GDPR, it’s actually shockingly easy to comply with:

Just don’t track users and sell their data.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#269
post #2

This is a wonderful start. Here's hoping it catches on outside of the EU as well!

Why would it? The EU is just protecting its own member states' IT industries and its own interest in undermining encrypted communications.

The GDPR is part of a much longer and older saga concerning 'data sovereignty'.

US courts have in the past repeatedly forced EU companies to divulge personal data and business information, in US lawsuits (discovery etc..). The reasons the US justices always gave for allowing this, was that there were no sanctions for these EU companies making it illegal to cooperate with such judicial processes.

The GDPR expressly forbids this and also applies tough sanctions on companies and regimes that try to force it. By making it illegal to do business with such countries.

This is why Privacy Shield is so important for the US and the EU, it hashes out to what extent the US may infringe on EU data sovereignty. And vice-versa.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't work in advertising - I just use it as a customer. To the extent that it is wrong it is because we, as an average customer, have a pretty bad customer experience using the products. Educate me.

> I work in the industry > I don't work in advertising ??

Not the same person
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