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Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

economist.com

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Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#81

Post by samcheng »

MissingAFew wrote: post #70
samcheng wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt they would do that to an average schmuck like me, but the fact that it's a common consideration shows how far the Chinese government has fallen in the international public's perception. It's a shame, too. China has some really great cultural sites, substantial natural beauty, cosmopolitan cities, and excellent and varied cuisine. It would be a great tourist destination under a different government.

It's not a legitimate consideration though.

You're right; the risk of abduction is vanishingly small, even if many people are terrified of the power of the Chinese government. I'll replace "legitimate" with "common" in my comment.

Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#82

Post by umeshunni »

samcheng wrote: post #29
jimbob45 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an explanation for China’s low tourism? Is it just latent fears of COVID?

I doubt it's about COVID now. The government has really ruined China's "brand" internationally. 1. You need an onerous-to-obtain visa to visit. There is no visa exemption. 2. Banking is a total pain for a foreigner. Many places only accept Alipay or Wechat, which require a Chinese bank account. Cash doesn't work well either, because the largest denomination is tiny. 3. Many US-China flights were canceled in the pande…

I went to China earlier this year.

1. My visa took less than a week. In SF, where the consulate is busier than usual.

2. This is actually better than the last time I was there in 2019. Alipay now supports international credit cards.

3. Very true. Direct flights are rare.

4. It's annoying that even Gmail etc are blocked. VPNs that worked pre-Covid don't work anymore. The only thing that reliably worked was my roaming T-Mobile connection (but slow...)

5. This was always the case at my previous employer. We were issued temporary Chromebooks that were wiped after we returned. This time, I was extra careful and took a burner phone and left my personal phone off till I got to HK.

Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#83

Post by lozenge »

parineum wrote: post #68
bohadi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's really screwy is the government has replaced most of the English translation on street signs from a literal translation to phonetic translation of the mandarin sound. I don't think this is a fair take for a couple of reasons. Mandarin is unlike other languages in that it's written form is famously ideographic. Phonetic translation is all that is done in any pair {L, M}. I assure you there is no such thing as…

I'm confused at what you think isn't a fair take. It is pretty screwy to replace existing English translation (useful to people who speak English) with phonetic transcriptions of Chinese words into Latin characters (useful to... who?). Sounds dumb to me. > Mandarin is unlike other languages in that it's written form is famously ideographic. Phonetic translation is all that is done in any pair {L, M}. I assure you the…

They're talking about street names specifically, not traffic signs. What's the point in having a street name that none of the locals know because they know it by a completely different name?

Btw, based on Wikipedia, China uses symbols for traffic signs like Russia and Europe. US and Canada are the exceptions who use text and only a small few symbols.

Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#84

Post by nmfisher »

I can probably provide some perspective on this given I:

- studied Chinese at university in both Australia and China

- worked there for about 5 years

- have a mobile app for learning Chinese [0]

I think the biggest difference between when I started learning (20+ years ago) and now is that China is no longer seen as a positive, growing force in the world economy. I started learning because I thought it would be useful for business in future, and I was probably right - up until around 2012.

Since then, the country became increasingly hostile to foreigners, foreign companies decided to cut their losses and pull out, the internet ecosystem has become worse and worse and visas are becoming increasingly difficult to obtain. China doesn't have much in the way of soft power (unlike, say, Korea), so it's just not a top destination for anyone coming from overseas.

That being said, there's also been a huge outflow of Mandarin speakers to other countries (like Australia), and Mandarin is becoming the default second language at junior/primary schools.

Mandarin is always going to be relevant (I mean, there's more than a billion speakers - it's not like they're going to vanish overnight). But I do agree that the language is becoming less "useful", because there are fewer and fewer prospects for working in China. Even international tourism is becoming less and leas attractive.

[0] https://polyvox.app

Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#85

Post by mensetmanusman »

MissingAFew wrote: post #70
samcheng wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt they would do that to an average schmuck like me, but the fact that it's a common consideration shows how far the Chinese government has fallen in the international public's perception. It's a shame, too. China has some really great cultural sites, substantial natural beauty, cosmopolitan cities, and excellent and varied cuisine. It would be a great tourist destination under a different government.

It's not a legitimate consideration though.

A work colleague checked their phone when a protest happened a block away and was then interrogated on the weekend for 10 hours by state police.

This is average schmuk stuff in China.

Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#86

Post by MissingAFew »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #85
MissingAFew wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a legitimate consideration though.

A work colleague checked their phone when a protest happened a block away and was then interrogated on the weekend for 10 hours by state police. This is average schmuk stuff in China.

This is a singular anecdotal experience. There are 1.4 billion people in China, most never experiencing anything like that in their lifetime.

Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#87

Post by mensetmanusman »

MissingAFew wrote: post #75
jamesaurichs wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some conjectures: 1.) There is a very high dislike of China across the world. Large majorities in most of the 19 countries surveyed have negative views of China https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/29/negative-views... 2.) No business need to travel there. Foreign investment is down 90% this year. Literally no US/europe presence in the trade fairs in China the summer. 3.) Flights are super expensive, b…

That's not even true anymore, I recently bought a ticket for 1100. They don't cost 5k to 10k.

My end shows $4-9k economy, $10-12k premium.

Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#88

Post by MissingAFew »

samcheng wrote: post #81
MissingAFew wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a legitimate consideration though.

You're right; the risk of abduction is vanishingly small, even if many people are terrified of the power of the Chinese government. I'll replace "legitimate" with "common" in my comment.

Common consideration would be more accurate, I agree. That said, I think it's a very silly consideration regardless of how frequently it's considered.

Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#89

Post by dotnet00 »

soligern wrote: post #46
version_five wrote: post #2

It's sad, I think people wanting to learn a language represents some kind of hope, and 10 years ago we were overall bullish on increased international collaboration. Now things have become way more insular, a future of international collaboration between superpowers seems way less likely. It's really sad.

I would be interested in seeing the numbers around Japanese, Korean, Hindi, Spanish etc. in my opinion, this may specifically be an avoid China phenomenon.

It's certainly more of a China focused phenomenon than say, Hindi and Spanish at least.

With Spanish learning rate would be high because it's just in general a very popular second language to learn, especially for Americans, regardless of any anticipated economic benefit.

With Hindi, English is also commonly spoken in India and a large portion of official business is done in English due to it being an option external from the many different languages spoken in the country. So there wouldn't be much benefit to learning Hindi specifically unless as a hobby.

Japan and Korea might be seeing an uptick in foreigners learning the language due to their cultural exports, which are increasingly popular in the West.

Re: Fewer university students are studying Mandarin

#90

Post by petsormeat »

fma wrote: post #44
fn-mote wrote: post #9

I can't understand this impulse. It seems blindingly clear to me that the international influence of China is rising and will continue to rise, and the need for Mandarin-English bilingual work will continue to skyrocket. If you do not believe that China is going to be an even more massive world power in the coming decades, then I guess I understand the drop in interest. I just cannot fathom how that could happen, tho…

I'd hire a Chinese student who graduates from a US university. Their understanding of Chinese & American culture/language would be far better than an American who studies Mandarin for a few years.

This. The large numbers of Chinese citizens graduating from US, UK, and Australian universities will be more appealing hires for work in PRC.
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