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The EU's war on behavioral advertising

thisisunpacked.substack.com

141–150 of 420 posts

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#141

Interesting how this is forcing these companies to objectively improve their products -- chronological feeds, friends and follows only, etc is what users have been begging for and being ignored, because advertising trash salad is more profitable. If the long-term effects end up being along the lines of the big social corps withdrawing from the EU, I see that as an enormous win for that economic zone. The presence of…

Twitter and youtube had chronological feeds for years.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unsustainable to do advertising while maintaing user privacy? Someone tell the whole advertising industry from 1950 to 2000 or so.

It's much less efficient to do mass ads than targeted ads. Giving a huge advantage to entrenched firms, and cutting off small startups. I guess that's what the EU wants though - protecting it's existing elites through exorbitant income taxes and regulations like these that favours big companies.

every regulation favours big companies in the trivial sense that there's a non zero cost to comply with any rule. However this is hardly a reason to not have rules, we also don't let startup companies throw waste into the river.

Smaller companies aren't somehow inherently virtuous, if they can only exist by violating user privacy even more so than large companies, I'd rather deal with large companies. Small companies aren't an end in itself. Banking is another good example of this. Canada has five big, heavily regulated banks and has not had one bank failure in a century. In the US tax payers bail out SV bank

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#143

As a lawyer working on these topics, this is a poor phrasing. EU regulators don't need to "war" with advertisers - they have complete control over them. There's no other side of this war, just regulators issuing commands that industry tries to follow. It's confusing as a war is because the regulators decided not to make the law say, 'behavioral advertising is illegal,' and instead have spent years slowly awakening to…

It’s as if they actually don’t want to introduce unnecessary regulation!

Or they weren’t paid enough in legal and illegal bribes before, if you prefer the cynical take.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#144
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to the extent where advertisers had this level of fine-grained information about their target though, which is the whole point of contention.

they always did, to the extent that was allowed by the tech of the time

>they always did, to the extent that was allowed by the tech of the time

As someone who spent five years doing advertising market research, and whose parents each spent 30+ years doing the same prior to ubiquitous internet use, I call bullshit on that statement.

While there certainly were efforts (with millions spent collecting data) to identify market segments and emotional triggers to better target market products/services (cf. BSB GlobalScan as an example), the idea that it was the right of ad sellers to monitor everyone's activities as their right in order to "target" advertising was never an option, nor was there ever any push to do so.

Convincing folks to participate in telephone/mall intercept/door-to-door surveys was used to identify consumer preferences and advertising efficacy.

No one ever asked (or did so without asking) to go through a consumer's mail, personal communications or effects as a method to determine how to target ads.

Since all those things are pretty much de rigueur these days, I'd say that's not a just difference of degree, but a completely different mechanism for gathering information about consumers.

And just because it wasn't possible to snoop through (without a potential breaking/entering and/or burglary charge) the private documents and communications of consumers, doesn't mean those folks would have done so if they could.

So yes, there's a big difference between the market research (surveys, focus groups, etc.) done in the past and the blatant spying/snooping on people's private documents and communications we see now.

You're making an assertion which doesn't match the facts.

Feel free to disagree, but I was there, and that business paid for my housing, food, clothes and everything else for more than twenty-five years -- both as the child of marketers and as a marketer myself.

I'd also point out that the Advertising Market Research industry was a very small group of people (perhaps a thousand employed by ad agencies/large corporations and a few thousand more employed by market research supply houses and interviewing/focus group companies.) and, as such, if there was a market for breaking into people's houses and rifling through their papers/mail, wiretapping their phones, etc., I'd know about it.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interesting how this is forcing these companies to objectively improve their products Is it though? Facebook only used to show me content from friends and pages I followed. Now it's a nonstop hose of garbage content that only exists to stuff the space between poorly targeted ads.

I’m confused, do you prefer chronological feeds from friends and family or not? GP is saying that feeds driven by friends and family would be an improvement to their products, and new EU law will drive that behaviour by making it hard for companies like Facebook to indiscriminately force black box recommendation algorithms on people. Isn’t that exactly what you say you want? And thus you agree with this statement > I…

> I’m confused, do you prefer chronological feeds from friends and family or not?

Yes. I would prefer this.

FB no longer gives me a customized feed. I get a generic feed tailored to my demographics - brain achingly dumb posts about Disney and Marvel and memes I don't care for. And I am unable to unsubscribe from any of them because none of them are based on my preferences.

This has been FB's response to the EU sanctions (as well as dropping user engagement) and is the "Non-Personalized feed" that the article is describing.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#146
post #52

I think this will evolve advertising in interesting ways. "Ads 1.0" had a viewpoint of trying to scrape every last little bit of data about a user's interests: from their email, messages, calendar, search history, friendships, and discussions. There was a mental model that you can't really know what's going to resonate with a person until you have their life under a microscope. This the "surveillance capitalism" take…

I am profoundly anti-advertisement because I believe in the pull model: if I want something I ask. So I think about 95% or more of advertisement today is annoying if not outright evil. But your comment got me thinking. Is there a world where advertisement is, um, just simply good? In other words, what makes advertisement bad today and how would these superapps make advertisement good?

We've definitely seen a rise of "advertising as content" where the ad itself is just so good that people will watch it for its own right vs having it imposed on them.

The Superbowl is a classic example here - some meaningful fraction of those watching are doing so for the ads vs any interest in football! But YouTube, TikTok, etc have all seen great success in organic/viral campaigns (Old Spice comes to mind).

To answer your question - how might a superapp make advertisement "good" would probably be not only showing you an ad that you're likely to commercially engage (to purchase the good/service) based on your observed interests but also where the ad itself is something you're likely to find interesting/educational/amusing and not annoying, because in the latter case you'll like/comment/reshare to percolate it "for free" and amplify their campaign. And the interestingness can be judged based on your history of interactions.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#147

Interesting how this is forcing these companies to objectively improve their products -- chronological feeds, friends and follows only, etc is what users have been begging for and being ignored, because advertising trash salad is more profitable. If the long-term effects end up being along the lines of the big social corps withdrawing from the EU, I see that as an enormous win for that economic zone. The presence of…

Twitter and youtube had chronological feeds for years.

And then they enshittified them.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#148
post #138

Seeing many folks ITT questing the value of advertising (behavioural/contextual) so some points: 1. Advertising ideally works as match making by connecting buyers to sellers where the seller is unaware of the buyer. (i.e. the unknown unknown problem). Companies usually collect advertisements and place them on limited ad slots. 2. In earlier, physical, forms of advertising such as newspapers, TV, Retail Stores etc, th…

Note that you have an unshown assumption here. That none of the participants lie and that you can infer niche effectively from the data. And that the ad can deliver the behaviour change The ads are only cheaper if they actually find the niche people and change the behaviour. Otherwise you spent money for nothing. The problem is that we have pretty good hunch from a bundle of clues that the data and org that validate…

1. Modern digital ads can be very well measured. At least the ones focused on direct conversion and not branding. Advertisers can measure the impact of their spending independently and the results can be seen fairly quickly. (Again, not brand advertising).

2. Advertisement match-making isn't perfect (which is why I wrote "in an ideal world"). There is some time and signal buffer till we get enough signal to show the right ad to the user (if ever). The intentions of the ad platform also have to be taken into consideration (Often not the case for Big Tech but even here).

3. Advertisements do have negative consequences. We can also target drugs, cults, gambling etc more effectively as well. Often the law has to play catch-up with the more controversial categories. Advertisers can also dupe/defraud buyers with false/misleading advertisements.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#149
Just wanted to say I thought this was an excellent description of the Internet ad market and the recent changes that have occurred. I don't work in the ad space (though I've worked on consumer sites so I have a fairly decent understanding), so I thought this article did a great job thoroughly and clearly explaining the details.

Re: The EU's war on behavioral advertising

#150
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people should remember that advertising was equally vilified at all times , whether it was on TV or print or radio. But at the time the EU was wise enough not to destroy its media economy. This time it's different

Ok, but can you provide an actual argument explaining why advertising (in general) is a good thing for society and the economy? You've mentioned multiple times the "it's good at extracting huge sums of money out of people making decisions against their own interests, which goes on to fund other endeavors" argument, but I don't think that's a good thing on the whole. If you can forgive a huge exaggeration from my part…

I wrote a reply but since it became too long, posted it as a comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37266563
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