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Common mistakes in salary negotiation

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Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#441

Post by ohthatsnotright »

gambiting wrote: post #356
ryan_lane wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company gives you an exploding offer, it's a strong signal that the culture of that company isn't good, or that they can't afford to hire quality candidates (or both). In companies like this you can assume you'll probably also get poor raises. In practice, if you get an exploding offer, unless you already think it's an extraordinary offer and love the potential opportunity, you can tell them that you won't be ab…

>>If a company gives you an exploding offer, it's a strong signal that the culture of that company isn't good, or that they can't afford to hire quality candidates (or both). I work in games - what happens for us quite often is that we'll interview ~10 candidates and 2-3 are actually good enough to hire. So the process is to give the top candidate the offer with a few days to accept it, if they don't then we move on…

> I work in games

That's your indication. There are a lot of people who want to work in games, but that doesn't mean it's a good culture.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#442

Post by bulatb »

JohnFen wrote: post #404
bulatb wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> why would a software dev have a portfolio? > For the same reason artists do They're asking more how it would happen, less for what purpose. Artists automatically accumulate portfolios by doing work that gets displayed in public. Programmers who work on closed-source programs don't—unless they supplement their work-for-pay in ways that artists aren't expected to. The artist's history of work itself is how they get…

As I said, how I do this is to bring in the code for my hobby projects. > The artist's history of work itself is how they get more work; the programmer's isn't. It's just a recommended strategy, not a requirement. In general, it's a great idea to identify a customer's pain points and reduce them. When you're looking for a job, the companies you're talking to are the customers. The easier you make things for the inter…

The person you replied to is annoyed they have to do that when it seems like others don't. They think they shouldn't have to and it isn't fair they do. Explaining how to do it fundamentally does not address their point.

If you're trying to explain how they can do it with the least amount of extra work, to minimize the impact of the extra expectation, please consider that not everyone has hobby projects. Even fewer people's hobby projects are presentable, and even fewer still can trust the other person not to draw some wild conclusion based on anything that might be in there.

I think everyone is clear on how the situation works, but not everyone is happy with it working that way.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#443

Post by deprecative »

uptie wrote: post #32
deprecative wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may seem like I'm being dismissive but I don't want to work anywhere. I work because I have bills that need to be paid. I don't derive enjoyment from making other people wealthy. I legitimately cannot think of such a state as enjoying work nor enjoying working at any given company in particular. Do you, and if so how did you cultivate that? If you don't mind answering.

Consider, thoroughly, the hypothetical lottery jackpot. What is it you would choose to do, pursue, aim for, if money were no object and you had nothing except your inner volition to drive you. Would you spend your days reading, exploring philosophy and knowledge? Or would you travel and see the world you've yet to traverse? Maybe you're an individual striving toward community and you want to focus on family, friendsh…

I want to respond and thank you for taking the time to reply. I want to put that here first because what I am about to say will seem flippant.

But I literally want to do nothing. I don't want to do anything - I want to not exist. Life is suffering. I derive no enjoyment from anything. I just make other people happy and wealthy and then go home and suffer until I go back to work and suffer.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#444

Post by Apofis »

kwanbix wrote: post #411
hknmtt wrote: post #331

There is only one rule when talking about job, or essentially anything in life, if you wan to win. And that is - always be ready to walk out. This mostly means able, not just willing. Never put yourself in a position where you are cornered and have no way out. This is where "fuck you money" comes in, usually. If you know you will have food on the table, roof above your head and a bed to sleep in, your perspective wil…

I don't think is a good idea to negotiate a raise with an offer. Either leave or stay.

Raises are bullshit. 3% inflation raise for everyone! Maybe?

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#445

Post by HellDunkel »

t0mas88 wrote: post #334
HellDunkel wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious. Given you have identified an underpaid employee and want to make sure to keep her/him. Do you actively approach the employee and set the salary straight or do you just watch closely and say yes to the next pay raise?

We do yearly increases based on performance review, we offer a higher increase if their salary is below benchmark number

Ok- a yearly increase based on performance sounds a LOT more attractive than the usual bonus nonsense.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#446

Post by avereveard »

pdonis wrote: post #199
avereveard wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless the number you give is significantly higher than any of your potential employers are ever going to offer you, you are shortchanging yourself by giving that number Then do better research before going into the meeting instead of playing games after multiple interviews rounds. Also companies don't have a lot of incentive to pay too much under market rate anyway, especially for higher end jobs where they provid…

> do better research before going into the meeting Research in the sense of information you can find without having detailed inside information about the company will tell you general salary ranges, which, as I said, will tell you whether it's worth your while to be talking to this company at all. But it won't give you a solid enough number that it's worth risking shooting yourself in the foot by giving it. > compani…

if you don't know your worth, you're entering the job market in a position of relative weakness, and no amount of third grade negotiation tricks like "not telling the first number" will make up for it.

what do you think, that by witholding that number, they'll start negotiating from the upper half of their budget range? that's wishful thinking, at best. no, they will offer whatever they think they'll get away with, and it will pin your salary discussion to a number they decided

I have no idea how people think that that is a good outcome.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#447

Post by ryan_lane »

chadash wrote: post #303
ryan_lane wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company gives you an exploding offer, it's a strong signal that the culture of that company isn't good, or that they can't afford to hire quality candidates (or both). In companies like this you can assume you'll probably also get poor raises. In practice, if you get an exploding offer, unless you already think it's an extraordinary offer and love the potential opportunity, you can tell them that you won't be ab…

This is highly dependent on the role. I have been tasked with growing teams where my mandate is to hire X number of engineers at various levels. If I found X hires and then hire X + 1 shows up and was a great fit, the company would make an exception. No exploding offers necessary. On the other hand, sometimes you are hiring to fill a specific position rather than to generally grow a team. You have two candidates you…

It may not be nefarious, but it's antagonistic to the candidate getting the exploding offer. If you're hiring for a particular role and the candidate is dragging their feet on the offer, you've likely not made a strong enough offer. Making the offer exploding limits their ability to negotiate.

If you've made an offer to one candidate, and you're holding your response on another, you're already doing a disservice to that other candidate. They should know that you've extended an offer to someone else, and that you'll contact them if that offer falls through.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#448

Post by ryan_lane »

gambiting wrote: post #356
ryan_lane wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company gives you an exploding offer, it's a strong signal that the culture of that company isn't good, or that they can't afford to hire quality candidates (or both). In companies like this you can assume you'll probably also get poor raises. In practice, if you get an exploding offer, unless you already think it's an extraordinary offer and love the potential opportunity, you can tell them that you won't be ab…

>>If a company gives you an exploding offer, it's a strong signal that the culture of that company isn't good, or that they can't afford to hire quality candidates (or both). I work in games - what happens for us quite often is that we'll interview ~10 candidates and 2-3 are actually good enough to hire. So the process is to give the top candidate the offer with a few days to accept it, if they don't then we move on…

> I work in games

Are there any gaming companies not known to have a poor culture? That industry is well known to be exploitative, with low pay.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#449

Post by __oh_es »

doix wrote: post #364
__oh_es wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urgency isn’t a always just a ploy. My background is consulting and earlier-stage startups in the UK which may mean we’re in a different environment to what you’re used to, but the teams are often lean, and sometimes strained by the time we’re out to hire. Sourcing and screening often starts a few weeks/months before but generally we move quite quickly through technical to offer stages - I think its healthy and fair…

It's interesting you mention UK and urgency in the same sentence. In my experience, nothing in the UK happens quickly when it comes to permanent employees (I guess contractors are different). Everyone has 2-3 months of notice period, plus people usually take a month off between switching jobs to relax. So there's usually 3-4 months between when everyone agrees and when they eventually join. The only time things happe…

I do agree with your reply but I was saying the only thing quick about the process has been the technical interviewing and offer.

The notice periods do get factored in both planning and _sometimes_ the deciding on a candidate.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#450

Post by sammorrowdrums »

__oh_es wrote: post #347
sammorrowdrums wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never accept an exploding offer. If they won’t give you more time, then let them see you’re prepared to let it lapse. It’s a ploy to create urgency when there is none, as is never in your interest as a candidate. I’d be very surprised if a single offer actually expired, it’s expensive to lose qualified candidates for the hiring company.

Urgency isn’t a always just a ploy. My background is consulting and earlier-stage startups in the UK which may mean we’re in a different environment to what you’re used to, but the teams are often lean, and sometimes strained by the time we’re out to hire. Sourcing and screening often starts a few weeks/months before but generally we move quite quickly through technical to offer stages - I think its healthy and fair…

> In my last job hunt no company turned down this request and two adjusted their processes to accommodate it.

It’s not that companies don’t want to hire fast (or don’t need to), I’ve worked at startups (in UK too), big tech and worked on hiring.

But if the rush is in their side and they want you, that’s different to an exploding offer in many ways, in that they aren’t trying to pressure you to move fast to improve their negotiating position and worsen yours, they’re the ones on the weaker position, and to get you to move fast for them, that gives you leverage.

You decide if you care about the offer and the company/role etc. and then ask them for a deal that’ll make you cancel your other interviews now in that case.

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