Leaving Haskell behind

Post by twic » Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 10:21 PM UTC

chriswarbo wrote: post #116

xmcqdpt2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much XML? Seriously though what's a decent Java build tool? Hacking on Gradle means having to learn another PL entirely. Maven? Then say I want to publish a library for others to use from their own java project, how do I do that? I've never actually done it, but that page https://maven.apache.org/repository/guide-central-repository... seems awfully complicated compared to say https://doc.rust-lang.org/cargo/refer…

I actually prefer using Maven and its giant XML files: at least they're declarative, and are easily parsed, transformed, generated, etc. by scripts. Most attempted replacements (Gradle, SBT, etc.) stick with largely the same model (i.e. no extra functionality) but use a full programming language for their "config" (Groovy, Scala, etc.). The latter gives us a "config" that's subject to Rice's theorem: it's essentially…

Post by twic » Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 10:25 PM UTC

TJSomething wrote: post #165

dkarl wrote: post #159

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I feel like Maven is doomed by its history. When Maven was created, expressing dependencies with version ranges was encouraged. But there was no lockfile concept, so that did not work well. Instead of adding lockfiles, they decided to leave the tool as it was but encourage people not to use dependency ranges. But dependency ranges are still supported, so you need a plugin to check your POM files and make sure you are…

Gradle can be quite good, but it's also really easy to make a completely unmaintainable Gradle file.

Post by grumpyprole » Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 10:38 PM UTC

twic wrote: post #271

chriswarbo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually prefer using Maven and its giant XML files: at least they're declarative, and are easily parsed, transformed, generated, etc. by scripts. Most attempted replacements (Gradle, SBT, etc.) stick with largely the same model (i.e. no extra functionality) but use a full programming language for their "config" (Groovy, Scala, etc.). The latter gives us a "config" that's subject to Rice's theorem: it's essentially…

Gradle is declarative. The 'code' you write does not conduct the build; it assembles an object graph which describes the build, much like the one you get from parsing the Maven XML. The advantage of using code for this is that you the description can be more concise, expressive, etc. But once it's run, the graph is built, and you can explore that, list dependencies, etc, quite safely.

Post by xwowsersx » Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 10:51 PM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #184

Tainnor wrote: post #153

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Kotlin doesn't get enough love. It gets derided by some Java developers for being too cutesy and sugary and it's not talked much about by the kinds of people who love to talk about Haskell, Lisp or Rust (no shade to these languages), but to me it's the most pragmatic language I've used so far.

Speaking as a lover of Scala who has seen Scala codebases go wrong in the cliché ways, Kotlin would be the first language I would consider if I were starting a new commercial software codebase today. Kotlin seems to have enough of the pragmatic elegance of Scala to get the job done with clarity and accuracy, without the curse of attracting the compulsive intellectual thrill-seekers that will ruin your Scala team if y…

Post by aetherspawn » Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 10:54 PM UTC

xwowsersx wrote: post #276

pooya72 wrote: post #14

If I had to choose the three big factors that contributed to my gradual loss of interest in Haskell, they were these : * the stylistic neophilia that celebrates esoteric code but makes maintenance a chore * the awkward tooling that makes working with Haskell in a day-to-day sense clunkier * the constant changes that require sporadic but persistent attention and cause regular breakages Valid points. Back in 2010-2012,…

> The community went from Cabal (and the infamous Cabal hell) to Stack, and back to Cabal. I didn't know this. I've been away from Haskell for a couple of years. When I last used the language, Stack seemed like smoothest experience and solved many of the pain points with Cabal. The community went back to Cabal? What did I miss? :)