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Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

nejm.org

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Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#31

To clarify the Hacker News title, the article is talking specifically about prostate-specific antigen (PSA) screening, which is already known to be of uncertain medical value except in some very specific situations. As the discoverer of PSA said, "I never dreamed that my discovery four decades ago would lead to such a profit-driven public health disaster. The medical community must confront reality and stop the inapp…

From the link you posted: "last month, the American Cancer Society urged more caution in using the test" It's a very sad state of affairs when a test that unambiguously offers some statistical utility (speaking as a Bayesian, any test is useful if we do the right things with the results, this is quite literally a provable theorem of decision theory) is potentially problematic because we aren't properly evaluating wha…

This is a very difficult area.

Firstly, these consults are never as easy or logical in real life. If you think doctors don't understand Bayesian probabilities then how well do you think patients do?

Decision making when screen positive results occur, with appropriate perspective, is virtually impossible for patients. I've lost count of the procedures I've done for incidental findings found with screening, which we KNOW are benign and will remain benign. Unfortunately, despite very strong reassurance, patients generally want these incidentalomas removed.

Secondly, unless your positive screening test can be dealt with.... a) by a procedure that has zero risk of complications and b) in a way where no stress is engendered while waiting for definitive results and) the costs of (screening + treatment) could not be more effectively spent elsewhere ...then there will ALWAYS be negative sequelae with screening. Therefore these negatives need to be assessed in a real world RCT of sufficient size and with maximal control of bias, to make sure they don't outweigh the positives.

Your perfect world of logical patients balancing pre- and post-test probabilities, and acting accordingly doesn't exist.

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#32

Thank you for phrasing this in terms of all-cause mortality. If only every academic study (and submission) used this as a metric, the world would be a vastly better place.

Well, not quite. All-cause mortality is not the appropriate metric for treatments targeted at people already known to be sick. Where it is appropriate is the case of blanket programs, like cancer screening, intended to be applied to the population in general.

Why isn't all-cause mortality appropriate for people who are already sick?

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless taking the test has a cost in and of itself -- such as if it requires surgery, so that the risk of something going wrong during testing might outweigh the information gained if the condition being tested for is rare.

Yup, definitely, I should have made that more clear than it was (I did mention "after discounting for the cost of the test", but it wasn't as obvious as it should have been). Test costs have to be weighed against benefits, but that whole process involves a lot more statistical sophistication than is typically applied in practiced medicine. Researchers are slightly better, though it's fairly common even for them to ma…

Ah, I missed that you included that.

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#34

Thank you for phrasing this in terms of all-cause mortality. If only every academic study (and submission) used this as a metric, the world would be a vastly better place.

I doubt it. If you relied on all-cause mortality for every study, you'd never get out of phase I trials.

Majority of "drugs" do not improve outcome. They "improve" condition.

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not quite. All-cause mortality is not the appropriate metric for treatments targeted at people already known to be sick. Where it is appropriate is the case of blanket programs, like cancer screening, intended to be applied to the population in general.

Why isn't all-cause mortality appropriate for people who are already sick?

Well, I had in mind things like, if you're trying to evaluate a flu vaccine or headache medication, you can obviously do much better than a ten year study of all-cause mortality.

But in the context of something like prostate cancer, maybe all-cause mortality is appropriate for people who are already sick, because you are trying to figure out how the risk of death from the disease balances against the risk of death from the treatment, and where the latter may manifest in nonobvious ways, e.g. many people with prostate cancer actually die of heart attacks. Was the stress of cancer treatment a contributing factor? All-cause mortality statistics might help answer that question.

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