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Leaving Haskell behind

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Re: Leaving Haskell behind

#51

Post by lovasoa »

pyrale wrote: post #20

As someone that has also written haskell for about a decade and moved away from it as a breadwinner recently (but for other reasons - I simply wanted to filter job offerings based on social utility rather than language stacks), I definitely agree with the author's first point: the Haskell community values learning extremely strongly. That's great because you work with curious people that have always something to teac…

> I simply wanted to filter job offerings based on social utility rather than language stacks

I wish more people did that.

Re: Leaving Haskell behind

#52

Post by bootsmann »

Tainnor wrote: post #46
wslh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why this discussion about tooling does not include .NET languages or Swift, even if the first class tooling are IDEs such as Visual Studio or Xcode. Most probably because the open source world escapes big tech dependencies?

No idea about .NET, but XCode is a joke of an IDE.

I appreciate the "run app on any iDevice" with one click that xcode offers, but yeah the rest of the UI is terribly clunky (Try moving the boundaries of frames).

Re: Leaving Haskell behind

#53

Post by Tainnor »

revskill wrote: post #48
Tainnor wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also used several languages and IMHO, Haskell's tooling is some of the worst. Language server breaks with random errors all the time for me, I'm always confused about whether I should have ghcup or stack manage my Haskell versions (and what the benefits and drawbacks are), and so on. I have a project I work on from time to time, and I'm 100% sure that the next time I'll open it up, it will stop working again. Py…

Not quite. I'm not sure about how Ruby with Bundler related to each other. Recently, i upgraded Ruby, but then what's to do about Bundler then ? I'm confused.

Bundler is Ruby's dependency management tool, basically like npm or similar. It's come preinstalled with Ruby for a while now.

Re: Leaving Haskell behind

#54

Post by Tainnor »

bootsmann wrote: post #52
Tainnor wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea about .NET, but XCode is a joke of an IDE.

I appreciate the "run app on any iDevice" with one click that xcode offers, but yeah the rest of the UI is terribly clunky (Try moving the boundaries of frames).

Not just the UI. The IDE barely has any functionality. Automated refactorings? Nope.

Re: Leaving Haskell behind

#55

Post by mananaysiempre »

pyrale wrote: post #32
Tainnor wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also used several languages and IMHO, Haskell's tooling is some of the worst. Language server breaks with random errors all the time for me, I'm always confused about whether I should have ghcup or stack manage my Haskell versions (and what the benefits and drawbacks are), and so on. I have a project I work on from time to time, and I'm 100% sure that the next time I'll open it up, it will stop working again. Py…

I've used stack+stackage, and I can still run all of my older projects. I agree that as a newcomer the choice is not evident, haskell is a small enough community that finding mentorship is not always evident if you don't know where to look.

> haskell is a small enough community that finding mentorship is not always evident

I don’t know about today, but ten years ago the answer was to hop on IRC and you’d get all of your IRC-sized non-FAQs answered, however difficult they are.

Re: Leaving Haskell behind

#56

Post by freilanzer »

pyrale wrote: post #24
pooya72 wrote: post #14

If I had to choose the three big factors that contributed to my gradual loss of interest in Haskell, they were these : * the stylistic neophilia that celebrates esoteric code but makes maintenance a chore * the awkward tooling that makes working with Haskell in a day-to-day sense clunkier * the constant changes that require sporadic but persistent attention and cause regular breakages Valid points. Back in 2010-2012,…

> Take Java, for instance. It has added features like Streams, functions, lambdas, algebraic data types, records, and pattern matching. In a doomed attempt to escape the prison in which they were locked, the inmates defiled their language and adopted grotesque rituals inspired by the light they saw through the bars of narrow windows. They created an endless pit of suffering of their own, which is made tolerable only…

Poetic truth.

Re: Leaving Haskell behind

#58

Post by pyrale »

mananaysiempre wrote: post #55
pyrale wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used stack+stackage, and I can still run all of my older projects. I agree that as a newcomer the choice is not evident, haskell is a small enough community that finding mentorship is not always evident if you don't know where to look.

> haskell is a small enough community that finding mentorship is not always evident I don’t know about today, but ten years ago the answer was to hop on IRC and you’d get all of your IRC-sized non-FAQs answered, however difficult they are.

There's libera chat now. But not everyone has the idea of looking there.

Re: Leaving Haskell behind

#59

Post by asplake »

Tainnor wrote: post #33
regularfry wrote: post #22

Hm. Not really convinced by either Ruby counter-example. The first one's ok, ish, but doesn't take advantage of the fact you can pass a block to `zip` so you don't need the `map` call. The second one's just wrong. You wouldn't use `flat_map` for that if you didn't want indentation, you'd use `Enumerator#product`: def all_flavors flavors = [:vanilla, :chocolate, :strawberry] containers = [:cone, :cup] toppings = [:spr…

The point is that Haskell's do notation works for every monad, whereas "product" in Ruby works for just a cartesian product of sets, and not any other use of monads (e.g. generating random values, async code, operations that might return errors, IO operations, and so on).

To me the ‘product’ in the Ruby example above is helpfully explicit and could be changed for something else.

Re: Leaving Haskell behind

#60

Post by girvo »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #16

This really resonates with me. I’ve been using it in a decidedly industrial application for about 1.5 years now. I had some fairly significant experience with it prior ( https://github.com/mattgreen/hython ). For the first time in a long time (20 years experience) I’ve needed to learn a significant amount of things. It’s a combo of the domain and the language. It’s rather exhilarating, and also exhausting. Could also…

> I’m still thirsty for a PL that is essentially OCaml but with a better syntax. But that’s just me.

Not just you, me too! In fact it’s why I went in deep on Reason when it arrived initially. Shame it never really got traction.

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