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Common mistakes in salary negotiation

interviewing.io

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Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#331
There is only one rule when talking about job, or essentially anything in life, if you wan to win. And that is - always be ready to walk out. This mostly means able, not just willing. Never put yourself in a position where you are cornered and have no way out. This is where "fuck you money" comes in, usually. If you know you will have food on the table, roof above your head and a bed to sleep in, your perspective will be quite different than a person that is one blown up tyre away from getting evicted.

And secondly, when it comes to jobs, always look for a job while employed. And not just that, you can use that to renegotiate your salary and benefits with your current employer because hiring new person would also mean mentoring them in the company culture and know-how and things like that, that you already know. So it is a cost to them that might be, and usually is, much higher than increasing your salary.

And a tip for the road, make sure your pay increases every year, either with inflation or based on agreed upon percentage(like 5% a year, for example). Inflation is universal and companies increase their prices accordingly, yet workers never require increase of their salaries, usually until years later.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#332

I work for a Fortune 100 company. Years ago they wanted to make sure that everyone in the same job was making the same amount of money (they were especially trying to make sure women were making as much as men). So they had an outside consulting group look at everyone’s salaries and adjusted them as needed to make sure they were all the same within $1. I ended up getting a $15k bump. They review it again every year t…

It's obvious to those on the ground that there are vast differences between people doing the same job. You can say "we only want the best" and fire the pretty-good, but the tone that sets is incredibly harsh. You can try to promote your top performers, but L+1 is usually defined as a different nature and scope of work, not the same work done better. This creates perverse incentives like separating people from their mentors so that they can demonstrate leadership, or choosing the most complicated way of getting something done & involving a lot of people so that they can demonstrate scope. Managers play these games because if they don't, they lose their best workers to outside offers.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently found out that i did not know the maximum. Only multiple offers and taking some risks allowed me to find out and it was well beyond what i had assumed.

You're spot on, and I don't know why people complain about "wasting their time interviewing" so much. Interviewing is both a valuable skill and a good information discovery process - as you mentioned. If you are doing a lot of interviews and not getting jobs - then you need more practice doing them. If you're getting so many offers its boring, look for a way to interview for more demanding positions.

>I don't know why people complain about "wasting their time interviewing" so much. Interviewing is both a valuable skill and a good information discovery process - as you mentioned.

for me:

- it's long, often 3 stages minimum, but more typically 5-6 rounds. do I really want to take 5-10 hours per job out of my month just to "figure out my worth?". As long as I can pay the bills and I'm not miserable at my job, I'm fine.

- if you have a job, it is hard to schedule around all these rounds. In addition, it feels stressful since by most intents, a company does not react well to hearing you are shopping around

- it generally makes use of skills that do not reflect my performance in a job. I am 6 years into industry, I don't and never needed to invert a binary tree on the spot. Meanwhile, actual skills like proper coding practices/architecture, code review feedback, test coverages/edge cases, and the ability navigate through the company to find the person you need are barely even mentioned.

- it's a sterile, artificial environment that more or less makes you put on airs to show "your best self". "why do you want to work for this company" is asked in nearly every interview setting and we all know your real answer is the wrong one, as opposed to using the time to show off how much you researched the company. Even if you basically jut googled "X engineer" and applied because the salary range fit you.

I can understand testing in juniors, because there is no license exam for an engineer, and maybe on the other side of the hump you can get to a point where the companies are trying to impress you. But that middle hump feels like the worst of both worlds.

>If you're getting so many offers its boring, look for a way to interview for more demanding positions.

if you're at that point, you're probably not going to find your answer on the internet. those sorts of jobs are word of mouth.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#334
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience hiring, we know the benchmark numbers for the roles. Because we have current employees in those roles and we want to understand whether we're paying them fairly. Not out of some kind of deep kindness, but because otherwise they'll at some point get a better offer and leave. But it differs across the company where we aim to be. For some roles we aim for 50th percentile, while for other areas we delibe…

I am curious. Given you have identified an underpaid employee and want to make sure to keep her/him. Do you actively approach the employee and set the salary straight or do you just watch closely and say yes to the next pay raise?

We do yearly increases based on performance review, we offer a higher increase if their salary is below benchmark number

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#335

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

"the best negotiating advice is to have multiple offers" This is borderline "get in the job cannon and blast off to jobland" territory. Also - it can be terrifically difficult to line up multiple simultaneous offers because companies would rather explode their offer than generally let people get a better leverage. I know multiple companies who do this on purpose for this explicit reason. Is it inefficient from a mark…

I agree it can be hard to line up multiple at the same time, but unless you're in a desperate situation you can get much the same effect by being prepared to walk. I've talked offers up by being entirely opened that I walked away from an offer of $X, because it was a clear signal to the place I was interviewing at that I was confident I could land more, and I was confident I could because that first offer helped confirm I understood the right salary levels.

It's not quite as powerful as having a simultaneous offer, but the point is not whether or not you go to a specific other company, but whether or not they believe a) you'll actually turn them down, b) you're worth roughly what you demand. Another offer, even if turned down will help in both respects.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#336
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? If you’re truly willing to walk away from an offer, non-negotiable ones often turn out to be malleable.

You will just walk away, and another from the large stack of candidates who passed the interview process will accept that same offer. Engineers just have become much more easily obtainable and replaceable.

Not in my experience ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#337

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

This stuff only works if market participants abide by the law, which we know they don't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... The other issue you run into is cost of getting to competing offers. In your example, you can just ask a dealer for a quote and they'll give it to you, with little to no work on your part. In tech, you have to go through multiple hours of interviews to get this infor…

Also it's not just a matter of getting several offers in a two week period. That's somewhat doable if you are unemployed. If you're trying to interview without your current employer freaking out, you have to space these things out. You can only have so many 'appointments' in a two week period.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#338

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

"the best negotiating advice is to have multiple offers" This is borderline "get in the job cannon and blast off to jobland" territory. Also - it can be terrifically difficult to line up multiple simultaneous offers because companies would rather explode their offer than generally let people get a better leverage. I know multiple companies who do this on purpose for this explicit reason. Is it inefficient from a mark…

Never accept an exploding offer. If they won’t give you more time, then let them see you’re prepared to let it lapse. It’s a ploy to create urgency when there is none, as is never in your interest as a candidate. I’d be very surprised if a single offer actually expired, it’s expensive to lose qualified candidates for the hiring company.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#339
post #147

> My general policy with third-party recruiters is to not tell them ANYTHING and to always deal directly with the companies they introduce you, once you establish a point of contact there. You should assume that anything you tell your recruiter is going to get back to every company you’re working with. Why? Because their primary objective is to place your butt in the seat of one of the companies they’re working with,…

> If GOOD recruiters are talking to you, they want to place you at the highest comp package they can.

I'm pretty certain the article covered this exact point; even GOOD recruiters aren't going to jeopardize a deal with $1500k commission for an extra $150.

We see the same thing with real estate agents, or sales anywhere a commission is paid - the sales person would rather have 10% less commission from a closed deal than 0% commission from a deal that fell through.

Their incentives aren't aligned with yours: Their incentive is to close the deal, yours is to close the deal at the highest price.

> Good recruiters don't leave money on the table like that.

All good sales people are closers. That means they are always leaving money on the table. It's more important to close than to hold out for 10% more.

There is no such thing as a sales person who only closes deals at the highest possible price; they'd starve.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#340
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will just walk away, and another from the large stack of candidates who passed the interview process will accept that same offer. Engineers just have become much more easily obtainable and replaceable.

Not in my experience ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just to make sure: nit in your experience in 2023?
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