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Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

rijksoverheid.nl

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Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#691

Post by jkaplowitz »

berniedurfee wrote: post #643
jkaplowitz wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agreed about $100 bills - even $50 bills are often rejected at places with lots of counterfeiting risk and/or mostly small purchases. Many people in the US basically don’t use cash, quite true - but in some parts of the country like NYC, many restaurants and convenience stores are cash-only or only accept cards with a higher price or a minimum purchase amount. So cash is still very commonly carried in NYC and s…

I believe it’s illegal to put a minimum sale price on credit card transactions in NY. Though I still see it frequently in NYC.

Minimums used to be forbidden by many merchant agreements, but due to the federal Dodd-Frank Act from 2010, merchants can set credit card minimums up to no more than $10, as long as they set the same minimum for all types of credit cards they accept. This applies nationwide including NYC. Higher minimums are indeed still illegal, though that doesn’t mean you won’t still see them sometimes.

This provision of the Dodd-Frank Act does not cover debit cards, and I believe merchant agreements still prohibit minimums for debit cards. This prohibition is widely violated. I have no idea whether this prohibition is officially applicable to debit cards when they are processed as credit cards (which usually means no PIN for most US cards) - I’ve heard people say it’s not - but it definitely covers debit cards when they are processed as debit cards (which again for most US cards is always the case if a PIN is input).

As for NY’s current rules on price differences for credit cards vs cash and debit cards vs cash and the required disclosures, those are a bit complex, so I’ll just link an official explanation here:

https://dos.ny.gov/news/consumer-alert-nys-division-consumer...

But the TL;DR is, yes different pricing is legal if worded and disclosed correctly. To nobody’s surprise, illegal implementations remain common as well.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#692

Post by Gunnerhead »

thiht wrote: post #681
tomrod wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very small universe to assume that only illegal activity is conducted with 10k in currency.

I keep asking for legitimate uses of 10k in cash but the only answer I get is that it’s none of my business. It raises questions.

What if I have a fetish and want to buy some crazy sex swing. I don’t want you to know, I don’t want the bank to know, or the government to know. This is 100% legal and 100% none of your business and I prefer to keep it that way.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#693

Post by jkaplowitz »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #223
potatototoo99 wrote: post #10

There are many similar restrictions on other countries. Here is a list for Europe: https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/shopping-internet/cas... The equivalent of 3,000 - 4,000 Euro seems to be the norm.

In the US don't cash transactions over $10K (by businesses anyway) need to be notified? https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8300.pdf I assume this and most other restrictions are to stop tax evasion and money laundering.

Looks like that’s the case, yes. Still, that’s a reporting requirement, not a limit.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#694

Post by Gunnerhead »

mdrzn wrote: post #271
helaoban wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when your bank says: "no." ?

Why would the bank say no, if I have the funds? And let's not start with some fetish fantasy about "because an oppressive regime could do so any time"

I love how you describe it a “fetish fantasy”, I’m sure every authoritarian dictatorship or fascist government in history would have been called a fetish fantasy a decade earlier. So naïve.

The car is a variable for anything you can think of, but I will give you a hypothetical example with the car then. Imagine in 20 years where owning a gas car is frowned upon, the government introduces a new law that one can no longer purchase gas cars - used or not, maybe this government was even lobbied by some electric car conglomerate. Am I allowed to worry about that or is that a fetish fantasy too?

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#695

Post by allset_ »

nottorp wrote: post #683
systems_glitch wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that the last time one of my CC numbers was stolen, it was used to pay for air conditioning service, I'm sure that is also a concern for tradespeople!

No pin? No 3d secure?

In the US? Nope.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#696

Post by tekknik »

derfniw wrote: post #416
chollida1 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR? Privacy would be the biggest and most important reason and probably enough to end the conversation right here. But we can also include - ease of payment. Count out money and you're done. - vendor gets their money immediately, no 5 day hold like there could be on a check or money transfer -

At least in NL there is no such thing as a 5 day hold on a transfer. Typically these are instant, at worst next business day, and if you use something like "payment request" or "tikkie" all it involves is sending the buyer a link or posting a QR code somewhere to allow them to send money directly, instantly, to your account. No chance of making errors in the bank nr, you can pre-specify the required amount in the req…

How about handling a large transaction without internet access? Say you want to transact in the middle of space. What now? Wait until you get back to some connection?

As silly as it sounds, this system is not scalable.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#697

Post by tekknik »

NorwegianDude wrote: post #575
chollida1 wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was assuming payment for things like contractors or furnace repair that don't walk around with visa terminals. I agree that in a grocery store, it is far easier to pay with a card.

But people usually do have a terminal to accept payment. If not, they usually just send you an invoice. Makes bookkeeping much simpler for the business too. I have only paid in-person using NFC for nearly 10 years in Norway. I understand that the situation is different other places, but I'm literally not sure what our physical currency looks like now. However, I walked into a store in Spain yesterday that was cash on…

I don’t know much about Norway, but how would you transact during a natural disaster when power or network services are down for an extended period of time?

Centralized digital payments fail here as well.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#698

Post by tekknik »

NorwegianDude wrote: post #596
sacado2 wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take your card, phone or watch and hold it to the terminal for one second and you're done. I'm not sure I'd feel safe if anyone could pay an amount above € 3000 after stealing my watch / phone / card and putting them on a terminal.

Well, you can just turn off payments on the stolen device. As for the phone, you need to unlock the phone for larger purchases. The card requires a pin for larger purchases. The watch needs to be unlocked to after being removed from the arm. So that is not something to be worried about.

Maybe in Norway, but there absolutely is no pin check when making large purchases through at least Apple Card via Apple Pay. I made a $9800 US purchase a few months back and it was just face ID, which apparently can be fooled easily.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#699

Post by PrimeMcFly »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #472
dijit wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll be downvoted, but to answer this question with all honesty: 1) Disallowing a third-party in every single transaction you make, especially as 1a) Inflation means 3k now might be quite low in 20 years 1b) Banks themselves have been shown to be scummy 1c) Banks are a rare institution to allow outsiders into. 2) Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible; it's quite common for people to be ineli…

> Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible; it's quite common for people to be ineligible for a bank account under random (but common) circumstances. Not in the Netherlands. Any adult (18 or older) resident of the EU has the right to a bank account, by law. > an interesting loop you can get into is that you need to pay a utility bill in order to get a bank account, yet you can't pay a utility bil…

Surely an ID isn't required, it's just that most have one anyway.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#700

Post by PrimeMcFly »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #571
ghaff wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I got a RealID-compliant driver's license a few years ago in my state in the US, an existing driver's license and passport were not sufficient. I needed some document to server as proof of my current address, such as a utility bill. I don't remember what all the options were but, yes, some people--including kids getting their first driver's license or people sharing an apartment who don't have their name on a le…

In the Netherlands, the government already keeps track of everyone’s address. If you move, you have to register your new address with the municipality within a certain time frame. (IIRC 2 weeks)

Jesus that's freaky. Talk about government overreach.
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