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Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

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Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#121

Post by literalbatshit »

logronoide wrote: post #112
literalbatshit wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many people that would happily take the risk for significant reward though. Like, make millions of dollars a year, 1% chance you go to prison? Lots of takers.

Your assumption is wrong, a large corp is not an organized crime corporation. To be a CxO of a large corp you just can’t be “people”. You have to be a person qualified way above the rest of us. If you can make millions in a different place not taking the risk of going to jail you won’t take a role in a risky corp. May be they are psychos, but not idiots.

I disagree. Plenty of folks incurred very high fines and even jail time over backdated options. People still backdate options. The risk is low enough, and the return is high enough, for people to creatively interpret the law. As long as there is an interpretation that could be valid, laws will be bent.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#122

Post by taeric »

scarface_74 wrote: post #116
taeric wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The local bookstore is free to sell below wholesale cost, as well. Has often been done... I did read the link. It did not, specifically, call out price dumping. What it called out was that publishers wanted people to value books at more than $9.99. Something that the Best Seller list of Amazon's was undermining. As someone that remembers this as it was happening, I also remember that other ebooks that Amazon was sell…

So you read the article. But you missed the part where it said From the article: > Amazon was actually losing money on e-book sales, but it didn’t care. The long-term goal was to get people to buy its Kindle e-readers. —- > After all, the cost they paid is a sunk cost at that point and it may be worth it to move the item at a loss than to continue to store it You realize the discussion is about ebooks that Amazon was…

Selling at a loss over wholesale is not, specifically, price dumping. In particular, price dumping is something that is specific to producers. Consider the old "movie theaters lose money showing the movies, but make it up on the concessions." By the naive argument, that would not be allowed. Yet here we are.

My main claim with regards to Amazon is mainly if they were guilty of price fixing, than it would have been pursued. Can you find any legal proceedings that take that charge against them? Heck, if they were guilty of price discrimination, that would likely have been pursued. It has been brought against them, but it has not gone anywhere that I can remember.

The discussion, per the top post of mine in this thread, is over whether or not Apple could be afoul of antitrust. I entered this branch by pointing out that antitrust != monopoly. It is a type of antitrust concern, but it is not the only one. You keep trying to pull up non-sequitur points that don't change that. Apple has been guilty of antitrust law in the past despite not having a monopoly.

If you are worried that Amazon has a monopoly on ebooks, note that their current ebook share is evidently close to what Apple's phone share is in Japan. Which... doesn't look good for your monopoly argument there, to be honest. That all said, I don't think that should change much of the legal issues here.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#123

Post by arrosenberg »

ecf wrote: post #105
arrosenberg wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's hysterical. If I had my way, Apple would be required by law to allow fair and reasonable pricing, alternate app stores, as well as transparency in whatever bureaucratic decisions they make. They'd still make an absurd amount of money on their hardware. I find it ridiculous that we allow a private company to act as regulator over any sector of the economy, let alone one they have over 50% market share in.

> I find it ridiculous that we allow a private company to act as regulator over any sector of the economy, let alone one they have over 50% market share in. If you feel that way then there are countries with economic models that don’t allow this. Venezuela comes to mind. Maybe you should relocate there so you can experience the outcome of heavy handed government control.

Again with the hysterical straw man. Right now I'm experiencing the outcome of heavy handed corporate control. There are a whole range of outcomes between that and full state control of the markets.

Do you believe that competitive markets are good? The App Store isn't one, I'm advocating for more competition, more trade and prosperity.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#124

Post by scarface_74 »

taeric wrote: post #122
scarface_74 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you read the article. But you missed the part where it said From the article: > Amazon was actually losing money on e-book sales, but it didn’t care. The long-term goal was to get people to buy its Kindle e-readers. —- > After all, the cost they paid is a sunk cost at that point and it may be worth it to move the item at a loss than to continue to store it You realize the discussion is about ebooks that Amazon was…

Selling at a loss over wholesale is not, specifically, price dumping. In particular, price dumping is something that is specific to producers. Consider the old "movie theaters lose money showing the movies, but make it up on the concessions." By the naive argument, that would not be allowed. Yet here we are. My main claim with regards to Amazon is mainly if they were guilty of price fixing, than it would have been pu…

> By the naive argument, that would not be allowed. Yet here we are.

So exactly how was Amazon making money by selling ebooks at a loss and Kindles at a loss?

And you keep moving the goal posts. At first you claimed that Amazon was and bookstores were selling below suggested retail.

> My main claim with regards to Amazon is mainly if they were guilty of price fixing

No one claimed that Amazon was price fixing. The contention was that Amazon was price dumping to drive competitors out of the market.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#125

Post by livueta »

LordDragonfang wrote: post #63
donmcronald wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the app store monopoly is literally the thing that lets the bad guys participate in the first place. Consider competing app stores. Some of them would be stricter than Apple and do a far better job of curation IMO. For example, apps that exist to trick children into in-app purchases could be forbidden. Or maybe someone would start a store for games that only allows up-front sales, no subscriptions, and no ads…

> Or maybe someone would start a store for games that only allows up-front sales, no subscriptions, and no ads. [...] [Those] stores would filter out a huge amount of junk that’s currently on the Apple app store. While I'd love to live in a universe where this could actually happen, in reality this is a pipe dream. The reason the app store is full of freemium apps stuffed with ads and microtransactions is because tha…

The existence of F-Droid demonstrates the existence both of devs willing to list apps in restrictive "stores" and of users who seek such software.

Even assuming commercialized stores, that proposed race to the bottom dynamic doesn't hold up - Walmart is not the only retailer. People are happy to pay for quality and curation.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#126

Post by taeric »

scarface_74 wrote: post #124
taeric wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling at a loss over wholesale is not, specifically, price dumping. In particular, price dumping is something that is specific to producers. Consider the old "movie theaters lose money showing the movies, but make it up on the concessions." By the naive argument, that would not be allowed. Yet here we are. My main claim with regards to Amazon is mainly if they were guilty of price fixing, than it would have been pu…

> By the naive argument, that would not be allowed. Yet here we are. So exactly how was Amazon making money by selling ebooks at a loss and Kindles at a loss? And you keep moving the goal posts. At first you claimed that Amazon was and bookstores were selling below suggested retail. > My main claim with regards to Amazon is mainly if they were guilty of price fixing No one claimed that Amazon was price fixing. The co…

The majority of books they sold were not done so at a loss, oddly. Only the "best sellers" and that was something publishers didn't want to allow.

What goal post have I moved? It is incoherent to try and argue whether or not Amazon is a monopolist in a thread about whether or not Apple can be held to antitrust concerns. I continue responding as it is a little fun, though I confess I'm growing weary.

The claim of wholesale versus suggested retail is precisely what Apple helped publishers push. Apple conspired with the publishers to force an "agency" model where Amazon could not set the sale price. Contrasted with the outstanding "wholesale" model that they were in before.

You are arguing that Amazon was price dumping and that is specifically not something Amazon has been accused of. They have been accused of loss-leader pricing on the best sellers to get people to buy other books. But that is a different thing, entirely. You seem to think any loss-leader sales are illegal, and that isn't the case. It can look and feel very like predatory pricing, but it is a different thing.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#127

Post by scarface_74 »

Apocryphon wrote: post #118
scarface_74 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked “So did the Epic judge ignore the ruling of another judge where Apple was accused of behaving monopolistic in regards to the App Store?” And you bought up a completely irrelevant case that the judge ignored. She also ignored the case about Apple Music (the company owned by the Beatles) suing Apple, was that a relevant case too?

What was the ruling by the other judge, and was it brought up in Epic Games v. Apple

Why does it matter? One case was about collusion between Apple and the book publishers and the other was about whether Apple had a monopoly on the App Store.

Why would the judge care about the other case? What precedence did the first cass set on the other?

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#128

Post by 6510 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #25
HumblyTossed wrote: post #22

> Since the developer had no idea what it was supposed to have done wrong, it was unable to meet Apple’s appeal requirement of explaining what happened, and how it has resolved the issue. The appeal was thus denied. If nothing else, Apple should fix this. There is ZERO reason to be anything other than 100% transparent.

There is ZERO reason to be anything other than 100% transparent. The customary rationale, at least around here, goes something like "B...b...b...but if we actually document the rules and tell you what you did wrong, it helps the BAD GUYS!!!11!!"

I've been silently thinking that anyone who agrees to those terms is a traitor. Promoters of unethical business practices. Willing slaves?

Why do people accept these terms?

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#129

Post by scarface_74 »

taeric wrote: post #126
scarface_74 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the naive argument, that would not be allowed. Yet here we are. So exactly how was Amazon making money by selling ebooks at a loss and Kindles at a loss? And you keep moving the goal posts. At first you claimed that Amazon was and bookstores were selling below suggested retail. > My main claim with regards to Amazon is mainly if they were guilty of price fixing No one claimed that Amazon was price fixing. The co…

The majority of books they sold were not done so at a loss, oddly. Only the "best sellers" and that was something publishers didn't want to allow. What goal post have I moved? It is incoherent to try and argue whether or not Amazon is a monopolist in a thread about whether or not Apple can be held to antitrust concerns. I continue responding as it is a little fun, though I confess I'm growing weary. The claim of whol…

Why exactly would people buy other books just because they bought best sellers at a loss. Are you really going to say now that you didn’t switch in mid stream from referring to selling below suggested retail price to selling below wholesale cost?

Even worse in a conversation about ebooks you brought up “holding costs” like we were talking about physical books.

i didn’t bring up the Amazon case.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#130

Post by taeric »

scarface_74 wrote: post #129
taeric wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of books they sold were not done so at a loss, oddly. Only the "best sellers" and that was something publishers didn't want to allow. What goal post have I moved? It is incoherent to try and argue whether or not Amazon is a monopolist in a thread about whether or not Apple can be held to antitrust concerns. I continue responding as it is a little fun, though I confess I'm growing weary. The claim of whol…

Why exactly would people buy other books just because they bought best sellers at a loss. Are you really going to say now that you didn’t switch in mid stream from referring to selling below suggested retail price to selling below wholesale cost? Even worse in a conversation about ebooks you brought up “holding costs” like we were talking about physical books. i didn’t bring up the Amazon case.

The idea is that you would buy other books to read on your ereader between best sellers that you were interested in. This isn't exactly rocket science...

The "holding costs" is precisely why the publishers stuck to the wholesale contract, and is why I brought it up. They kept the same terms and added ebooks to the deal. Then got upset when Amazon took advantage of that. (And... I noted that that is a silly model here.)

And you did bring up the idea that Amazon was a monopolists here. Which I pointed out was incoherent to the topic. Apologies for letting you continue it. :(

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