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Common mistakes in salary negotiation

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Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#171

Post by JohnFen »

andrewfromx wrote: post #128
xyzelement wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think how you say it is as critical as understanding the concept. When I am interviewing, I am usually talking to a few companies at the same time, so my answer is usually "While I don't want to throw out a number, just wanted to be transparent that I am talking to a few companies and have/expect to have another couple of offers before I make a decision. Obviously how those offers come in will be a factor in…

yeah but I was raised to be a good kid and do what the teacher or adult authority figures tell me to do. Even though I'm an adult now, when a fast talking recruiter demands to know some numbers I have a hard time not just folding and giving in! I would need to print out those words and paste them on the wall and like practice 10 times with a friend playing the role of sneaky recruiter.

> I would need to print out those words and paste them on the wall and like practice 10 times with a friend playing the role of sneaky recruiter.

This is actually a really fantastic idea. You should absolutely do this.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#173

Post by distant_hat »

xyzelement wrote: post #111

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

That's a sound advice for bonds but jobs are largely not like that by design. It is kind of like dating, and asking for a price upfront makes it closer to whoredom and companies explicitly downgrade you for being in it only for the money. If you want to sell a bond and the other person's price is too low, you don't sell it and that's that. For interviews, you end up spending hours through the interview process and may not even know whether you will end up getting a salary quote at the end of it. Getting multiple quotes is a great idea, but putting it in action is harder than it appears. It may help to go with someone like a recruiter who can disintermediate the process. I've often thought someone like an agent for software professionals could make a great idea. That person's job is to get you great gigs and good prices and she makes a percentage of your salary so is aligned with getting you the best offers.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#174

Post by zoomablemind »

RandallBrown wrote: post #4
RhodesianHunter wrote: post #2

How do you avoid wasting your time doing interviews with companies that have no intention of paying you what you expect without disclosing some form of salary range upfront? I've generally taken what I want to make in the role and added 20% to it as a starting point. While this might limit me, it also keeps me from doing 100 onsite interviews only to discover their max is 2/3 of my expected comp.

The article just avoids that problem. > very few companies pay so much below market that it would be a nonstarter I don't really agree with that statement as my experiences have been different.

My understanding is that the game is usually about the money saved between the offer and the target salary band.

Companies have their review schedules and the new hires would be boarded before the reviews. This would allow to hire at low ball and then give a "raise", effectively leveling it.

Not only aiming at below market figure saves company the money, this also serves as a retention tool.

So, it does pay to know an approx of the target comp band AND your own "happy" target. The hard part is to formulate it as a package.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#175

Post by Aurornis »

nunez wrote: post #147

> My general policy with third-party recruiters is to not tell them ANYTHING and to always deal directly with the companies they introduce you, once you establish a point of contact there. You should assume that anything you tell your recruiter is going to get back to every company you’re working with. Why? Because their primary objective is to place your butt in the seat of one of the companies they’re working with,…

Forcing the company to name a number first works well when the person has absolutely no idea what market rate is.

However, the idea that it’s the optimal strategy in every situation has been blown out of proportion online. When you force a company to name their price first, they will start with usually a number lower than their target compensation because most candidates will then want to negotiate up. Of all the salary negotiations I’ve done in the past decade, I can’t remember anyone who asked us to make a price first and then didn’t counter with a token $5K or $10K (or more depending on position) counter request. So the easy bet is to take your mid-range comp target, subtract $5K, and then most candidates will end up at your target after they “negotiate”. It’s basically a script that everyone who reads internet advice follows, and once you see it play out you can start to predict it.

If you want to get the upper end of what companies are willing to pay, you often have to start by naming your price and letting them negotiate down. This is scary to people who don’t have a lot of data or who are afraid of being told “no”. It can also result in outright discontinuation of the interview process if the company doesn’t want to pay a lot, but that’s not really a big loss if your goal was high compensation anyway.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#176

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

nitwit005 wrote: post #168
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the two traits are just randomly assorted, then sure, they'll rarely overlap at what is a statistically random rate. But, if we can assume that the "rare talent" is anything other than straight out of college, they will have discovered that they are a rare talent, be aware of it themselves, and barring some sort of crippling neurosis, want to cash in on it. They might not even be skilled at negotiating... they'll…

If you literally wrote the book on the subject, or something similar, they'll probably just create a job role for you. But that said, not every company is trying to hire the best people. As you note, they're expensive.

You'd think that, and it's probably even the smart strategy for the employer... But I remember what the guy who wrote homebrew said about his Google interview process.

Once an HR culture develops, anything sane or intelligent probably goes out the window.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#177

Post by pjot »

pdonis wrote: post #165
nunez wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another side to this advice. If you don't know what market is, you can do one of three things: 1. Check out levels.fyi (overindexed on FAANG; not reliable), 2. Ask for a number that "sounds" high to you, and let the recruiter negotiate down (risky; recruiters might laugh you out the room if you go too high), or 3. Ask a recruiter, and then add a premium on top of whatever they tell you! Recruiters will be an…

You left out: 4. Don't give a number at all. If you are interested in Company X, and you've gone far enough in the process to know they are interested in you, tell the recruiter that you would be interested in seeing a competitive offer from Company X, or something along those lines. At the end of the day, the best negotiating leverage you have is that if Company X actually does want to hire you, at some point they h…

> Don't give a number at all

Can you give an example of how this plays out in real conversation? Answering “I’m not telling you” or similar to the recruiters question “what’s your expected compensation” seems like bogus advice

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#178

Post by stopnamingnuts »

andrewfromx wrote: post #24

the best part is the "exactly what to say" at the end: "At this point, I don’t feel equipped to throw out a number because I’d like to find out more about the opportunity first – right now, I simply don’t have the data to be able to say something concrete. If you end up making me an offer, I would be more than happy to iterate on it if needed and figure out something that works. I promise not to accept other offers u…

> I would have to have that right in front of me and read it word for word. And if I get pushed to reveal a number I would need to just pause and slowly repeat it again word for word like a robot.

LOL. I'd probably read it like a bank heist hostage. Ideally, while blinking rapidly and visibly sweating on the Zoom meeting.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#179

Post by mateo411 »

thedougd wrote: post #130
victor9000 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like a great way to miss out on talent that can command a salary higher than the average, while simultaneously attracting talent for whom this is a good deal.

Whenever an employer talks about industry median pay, I ask if they want industry median work, or industry median talent and remind them that half of all will perform better.

Not if everybody in the entire industry is paid the same. :)

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#180

Post by Goronmon »

jawns wrote: post #42

> Preparation and leverage means doing the work to make sure that you have multiple offers, that all your offers come in at the same time, and that you don’t tip your hand too early. Laying this foundation is 80% of the work. You’ll need to slow some companies down, speed some companies up, and hold off questions from recruiters until you’re ready to negotiate, and not before. Laying this foundation is largely unachi…

Even when you're doing nothing but applying and have a decently impressive combination of skills and experience, it can be quite difficult in certain environments to get a single offer, let alone multiple offers, let alone multiple offers coming in at the same time.

It's even worse if you lack any impressive skills and experience.

Aside from the fact that interviewing itself is really bad for my mental health, despite being in the bottom of the percentiles on places like levels.fyi, I doubt I'd be able to match my currently salary with any job that I could actually get hired for. So, looking up this type of information just ends up discouraging me even more.

Knowing that finding a job is less about salary and more about just being able to get an offer makes most of this advice less than helpful.

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