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Common mistakes in salary negotiation

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Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#161

Post by nunez »

ShakataGaNai wrote: post #150
nunez wrote: post #147

> My general policy with third-party recruiters is to not tell them ANYTHING and to always deal directly with the companies they introduce you, once you establish a point of contact there. You should assume that anything you tell your recruiter is going to get back to every company you’re working with. Why? Because their primary objective is to place your butt in the seat of one of the companies they’re working with,…

> I think it is much faster and easier to ask what you're looking for up front. That assumes you know what you want and know what's reasonable/fair for the job and area. Most people don't know. Even if they've worked a similar job in the area, doesn't mean they know what the current going rate is. Once when applying for a job I asked for what was basically my current salary plus $20,000. The hiring manager said somet…

There is another side to this advice.

If you don't know what market is, you can do one of three things:

1. Check out levels.fyi (overindexed on FAANG; not reliable),

2. Ask for a number that "sounds" high to you, and let the recruiter negotiate down (risky; recruiters might laugh you out the room if you go too high), or

3. Ask a recruiter, and then add a premium on top of whatever they tell you!

Recruiters will be an excellent source of what a realistic market is for your skills in your area. However, as this article articulates, many people don't negotiate, so it's fair to assume that the market rate they give you is low.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#162

Post by jgeada »

Nemi wrote: post #73

So this is the exact same problem with Realtors. They will say that they have a fiducial responsibility to represent you and that they will try to get you the best price (either the most or least, depending on whether they are on the selling or buying side, respectfully). And they will do that, to some limited extent. But really their incentive is to close the deal . And that means telling you that this is the best p…

According to Freaknomics, realtors get about 3% higher average closing prices on their own properties than when they're representing you as a customer. That is the delta when it is their money on the line vs yours.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#163

Post by JohnFen »

s0rce wrote: post #105
codegeek wrote: post #97

You can have this conversation: You: Ok recruiter, is there a budget/range set aside for this position ? Recruiter: Yes it is $x-$y You: Ok I can work with that. My expectation is ideally $x+ z% Scenario 2: Recruiter: Hey, what are your salary requirements ? You: Ok recruiter, is there a budget/range set aside for this position ? Recruiter: Or goes "No but I am interested in learning what is your requirement ideally"…

Mine almost always goes like this: Recruiter: How much are looking for? Me: Could you please provide a range for the role? Recruiter: no, please let us know what you want Me: relatively high but not crazy number Recruiter: No, that's too high Me (in my head): why did you ask me then Me: Ok, please let me know what is reasonable Recruiter: some number that may or may not be acceptable Me: asks for a bit more if number…

Personally, I just wouldn't work with a recruiter who did that. That sort of behavior is a red flag to me.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#164

Post by imheretolearn »

sneak wrote: post #144
jawns wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a "mythical man month" fallacy. Say you're working a standard 9-to-5. Sure, you can submit applications during the evenings, but once you get your foot in the door, you're constrained by the business hours of the place where you're applying. Most job interviews take place during normal business hours. You might be able to take your lunch hour to do a phone screen, or you might be able to take off a co…

You're right, but I imagine there is wiggle room - both in scheduling interviews from 5PM to 7-8PM, as well as trading day job business hours needed for interviews for "working late" (really making up the time) for stuff that isn't meetings or synchronous. If you're hustling toward a $300-600k/yr gig, I think a lot of temporary insanity can be tolerated in furtherance of that goal. Remember also that salary increases…

Works well in theory but not in practice. Your peers/managers will soon notice and figure something’s up especially if each of the interviews has 5-6 rounds(which is what you’d usually expect for a position paying $300k-$600k)

> Remember also that salary increases compound over your working career.

Not true. As demostrated by 2021-2 outrageous offers where the market is now correcting itself.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#165

Post by pdonis »

nunez wrote: post #161
ShakataGaNai wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is much faster and easier to ask what you're looking for up front. That assumes you know what you want and know what's reasonable/fair for the job and area. Most people don't know. Even if they've worked a similar job in the area, doesn't mean they know what the current going rate is. Once when applying for a job I asked for what was basically my current salary plus $20,000. The hiring manager said somet…

There is another side to this advice. If you don't know what market is, you can do one of three things: 1. Check out levels.fyi (overindexed on FAANG; not reliable), 2. Ask for a number that "sounds" high to you, and let the recruiter negotiate down (risky; recruiters might laugh you out the room if you go too high), or 3. Ask a recruiter, and then add a premium on top of whatever they tell you! Recruiters will be an…

You left out:

4. Don't give a number at all. If you are interested in Company X, and you've gone far enough in the process to know they are interested in you, tell the recruiter that you would be interested in seeing a competitive offer from Company X, or something along those lines. At the end of the day, the best negotiating leverage you have is that if Company X actually does want to hire you, at some point they have to commit to an offer. You don't. You can always walk away and go talk to someone else.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#166

Post by ClumsyPilot »

xyzelement wrote: post #111

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

> am always surprised to hear people who hate interviewing,

Inreviewing is expensive. I think coding tests are a strategy to make it more expensive for a candidate.

Even if you are one of the best, getting a single offer can be full 2 days work - if you count the time spent searching, applying, etc.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#167

Post by JohnFen »

clusterhacks wrote: post #40
itsoktocry wrote: post #13

Not talking about your salary history is a decent tip. But negotiation isn't rocket science: you need to be thoughtful and honest to yourself and come up with an aspirational number (what you want, best case) and a floor (which you will not go below). Any number in between should be acceptable to you, by definition. I find the hardest thing for people is being honest about the floor and being willing to walk away.

I gave an honest floor salary to a company prior to interviewing. Their offer was 20% less than my floor. I think they thought it was my "best case" number despite very clear communication that it was my minimum to consider leaving my current role. I walked away vaguely annoyed with the hiring company.

> I gave an honest floor salary to a company prior to interviewing.

Never reveal what your honest floor is. That's just for you, so you know what is an acceptable negotiation range. Tell them what your expectation is, instead.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#168

Post by nitwit005 »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #149
emodendroket wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it sounds that way, if we assume that negotiating skill and job performance are tightly correlated. But why should we assume that?

If the two traits are just randomly assorted, then sure, they'll rarely overlap at what is a statistically random rate. But, if we can assume that the "rare talent" is anything other than straight out of college, they will have discovered that they are a rare talent, be aware of it themselves, and barring some sort of crippling neurosis, want to cash in on it. They might not even be skilled at negotiating... they'll…

If you literally wrote the book on the subject, or something similar, they'll probably just create a job role for you.

But that said, not every company is trying to hire the best people. As you note, they're expensive.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#170

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

t0mas88 wrote: post #62
pc86 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never had issues with this approach. Yeah you'll get a few people who think they're being cute about wanting to schedule a call or whatever, but when it comes down to it "I don't move forward without knowing the budgeted range for a position" gets me a number probably 19 out of 20 times, almost always the first time too.

It makes no sense at all for the company or recruiter to hide the range for you. Because they would be wasting their timing doing all kinds of meetings if your expected number is far above that range.

It makes some sense to hide it, because they're not just hiding it from you. They're hiding it from all candidates, and a policy of telling everyone (or hiding from everyone) can have an effect on just what sort of candidates they get.

If, in exceptional circumstances, they would pay 30% more than everyone else, they might want to hide this. Instead of saying "we do 95% to 135% of what everyone else offers", they say "we do 95% to 105% of what everyone else offers"... and suddenly they get fewer cranks and weirdos. But they still have the option of offering that 30% more, if they stumble upon some diamond in the rough.

They might want to, even if showing would bring in a few more good candidates. Is it disturbing the signal to noise ratio so much that it takes far longer and costs more to go through the whole process.

Of course, just because it might work this way in theory, it doesn't mean that it does in practice, especially consistently. So, it could be them chasing bad strategy that they can't determine to be bad strategy.

If they have a few more bad assumptions (like "our stated range is still good enough to get the decent candidates"), then they might be even more inclined to hide the range.

They're working through all sorts of bad tradeoffs too, just like you.

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