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Common mistakes in salary negotiation

interviewing.io

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Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#151

Post by JohnFen »

deckard1 wrote: post #136
ghaff wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Portfolios" in some form are often necessary. (In my space, writing samples.) If you have those ready to go, easier for everyone! But if you don't have a relevant portfolio, you'll need to either put something together or I'll pass. (I'm not really looking for a specific assignment but just something that's representative of the type of work.)

why would a software dev have a portfolio? The comparison to design or writing doesn't make sense. A graphic designer can point to logos or marketing material that is publicly available. I'm not going to put proprietary code on a portfolio nor am I going to spend multiple years building some open source project when I already have a full time job. Software engineering must be the only profession where employment hist…

> why would a software dev have a portfolio?

For the same reason artists do -- to show a potential employer what you're capable of and what your style is. Look at it from the employer's point of view -- they have very little to go on when judging ability. If you can provide examples of your work, then you're reducing their uncertainty and giving yourself an edge for the position.

> I'm not going to put proprietary code on a portfolio nor am I going to spend multiple years building some open source project when I already have a full time job.

You don't have to do either of those things. Your portfolio doesn't have to include large, complex projects. A collection of smaller ones will do nicely. Or, even easier, is what I do: I just bring in the code for the most recent hobby project that I've completed.

> interviewers always want salary history to knock you down

You don't need to provide that history. At least, I never do. When I'm asked, I respond with what my salary expectation is, not what my salary history is.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#152

Post by tmpX7dMeXU »

nunez wrote: post #147

> My general policy with third-party recruiters is to not tell them ANYTHING and to always deal directly with the companies they introduce you, once you establish a point of contact there. You should assume that anything you tell your recruiter is going to get back to every company you’re working with. Why? Because their primary objective is to place your butt in the seat of one of the companies they’re working with,…

Yep. Based on my experience with recruiters both as an employee and employer, following this advice is almost certainly just going to do you a disservice.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#153

Post by ferbivore »

leeny wrote: post #71
user_7832 wrote: post #41

Slightly meta (relating to the website) and not this specific article, I got a popup toast saying > Secret Zebra just left feedback for their FAANG interviewer: I really enjoyed the interview, you did really well in giving me the right level of assistance to keep under the time constraints. It was also pretty useful that you had prepared some extra code for testing. Apart from such toasts being unusual, I doubted tha…

We're actually testing those popups right now. Cycling through a few preexisting ones to see if engagement moves at all, and then we'll make them realtime.

How is making your website more annoying supposed to “engage” anyone?

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#154

Post by nunez »

steno132 wrote: post #129

If you're interviewing, you've getting lowballed. Picture a board chairman discussing a CEO position with his or her top candidate. The chairman's courting the candidate, they're playing golf, they're dining together and he's trying to convince him CEO is a job worth taking. The job's his, and so is any reasonable dollar figure he wants. Now, if that fails then the chairman may have traditional interviews with his se…

Unless you did something exceptional, like create a world-renowned programming language or are a staple in the biggest conferences in your niche, you're interviewing.

But I agree with your general sentiment.

Having a strong network to fall back on when you're looking is much better than throwing fish (resumes) into the barrel.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#155

Post by imheretolearn »

Most companies have a range for each level within their org. Candidates whose expectations are above the range are automatically filtered out. Ones within the range have no problems going forward with the interview/offer. The ones who suffer because of non-disclosure of the range are the ones whose expectation is below the range. People talk. If such a candidate joins your org, they will soon find out they’re being underpaid and will leave as soon as they find a better offer. It looks like disclosing the range is benefecial for both parties. Things are improving with laws mandating a range disclosure with the job application and websites like levels.fyi making things more transparent. There shouldn’t be a need to “neogiate” your salary above/below this range.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#156

Post by MattGaiser »

xyzelement wrote: post #111

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

> From that point of view, I am always surprised to hear people who hate interviewing, are reluctant to interview, etc. Interviewing is the only real way to learn "the market" - what offers to you would actually look like, and other information as well. Like if you always get offers at the low end of a range - or if you always fail interviews - is very good signal that you can act on.

I don’t think anyone disputes the value of the information. It is just painful to obtain.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#157

Post by diarrhea »

jamdamu wrote: post #39

FWIW I did all of those things this article says not to do and ended up making close to 200% of my previous total compensation (which I'm happy with). Some recruiters didn't ask me for my compensation figures upfront. Google, Microsoft, Meta, Snap, LinkedIn, and some startup recruiters never asked me for my compensation numbers up front. The only ones that did, were to make sure neither of us were wasting each others…

You must be a 100x engineer.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#158

Post by j1elo »

xyzelement wrote: post #111

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

> You can always tell job X "I'd love to work with you but it's hard to accept a lower offer, can you match?"

It's of course very dependant on each country and the jobs market, but in my experience the issue would be even getting to have multiple offers in a short enough period of time. To the point that it happening could be called a coincidence, more than anything. Unless you are fiercely hunting for a job (aka. doing several interviews per week), I don't see how it would happen to get an offer and telling the company "well, wait for a couple weeks or a month for my answer" just to see if it happens that offers arrive from the other places and one gets to compare simultaneously.

Seems more likely that an offer comes, you accept or decline it, if declined then other will eventually come some time later, and one can compare them and maybe regret having declined the former, and so on.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#159

Post by zoomablemind »

xyzelement wrote: post #111

I used to work in trading and I think some of the principles I learned there apply directly to salary negotiations. Two key things I think about all the time are price discovery and competition. Price discovery means that in some illiquid markets, you don't really know what a thing will trade at unless you try to trade it (which itself reveals some information to the counterparty but that's not important in the job c…

Interviewing on the actual offer/price is not the same as interviewing about getting a chance to schedule a conversation about ability to qualify for being considered for an interview with a person who could evaluate your worthiness to fill in a position within known but flexible compensation band which may not be directly offered after all...

Of course, not always it is that convoluted, but the "beef" is often that much detached from the process.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#160

Post by pdonis »

nunez wrote: post #147

> My general policy with third-party recruiters is to not tell them ANYTHING and to always deal directly with the companies they introduce you, once you establish a point of contact there. You should assume that anything you tell your recruiter is going to get back to every company you’re working with. Why? Because their primary objective is to place your butt in the seat of one of the companies they’re working with,…

> If you want $200,000, $400,000, whatever, just say so. BEFORE you start any interviews.

Unless the number you give is significantly higher than any of your potential employers are ever going to offer you, you are shortchanging yourself by giving that number--it means that you have now foreclosed potential higher offers that otherwise might have come your way. That is the basis of the advice given in the article.

I get what you're saying about knowing what you're worth, but that in itself doesn't give you very much help in knowing what potential offers might come your way. Unless you have detailed inside information about all of your potential employers (hint: if you do, you should already be leveraging that information to get a job offer without having to go through all the drudgery of interviewing like everyone else), you can't possibly know how the number you give compares to what they could potentially offer you. So you shouldn't give a number at all.

In fact, the more you know what you are worth, the less inclined you should be to give a number instead of just waiting for an actual offer. What knowing what you are worth should do is help you to decide, on your own (i.e, without asking recruiters who have conflicts of interest), which potential employers are worth your time to even look at in the first place. Don't even bother talking to companies that you know can't compensate you enough. But you don't need to, and shouldn't, tell recruiters what your threshold is for "enough". Just tell them company X doesn't look like it would be a good fit. Nuff sed.

> If recruiters are talking to you, they want to place you at the highest comp package they can.

They want to place you at the highest comp package they can as long as it doesn't risk not placing you at all. They never want to walk away altogether. But you might. So your interests and theirs are not quite aligned.

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