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Common mistakes in salary negotiation

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Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#61

Post by Supermancho »

I feel like these "tips" are from some kind of weird subculture I've never been part of. I've used 3rd party recruiters for almost 20 years and negotiation is always pretty transparent. I want X (which is more than I am currently making) and the recruiter finds a good fit. Sometimes the role is well above what I asked for.

Unless it's a boutique startup, I'm going to get into the role and find out right-quick what the salary bands are anyway, so the gaming seems silly. If it is some startup, I already provided the benefits I was looking for (and tradeoff for salary I would accept), so it doesn't seem to matter much.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#62

Post by t0mas88 »

pc86 wrote: post #50
ntac wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ask the recruiter what the salary range is. If they refuse to say, I tell them to get back to me when they know what the range is. I'm not going to waste my time if they want to play games like being secretive about the pay.

I have never had issues with this approach. Yeah you'll get a few people who think they're being cute about wanting to schedule a call or whatever, but when it comes down to it "I don't move forward without knowing the budgeted range for a position" gets me a number probably 19 out of 20 times, almost always the first time too.

It makes no sense at all for the company or recruiter to hide the range for you. Because they would be wasting their timing doing all kinds of meetings if your expected number is far above that range.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#63

Post by cratermoon »

deprecative wrote: post #20
cratermoon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you avoid wasting your time doing interviews Simple. Only interview with companies you'd like to work with so much that you'd be willing to negotiate from a starting offer 2/3rds of what you want. When your interest in the company is sufficient, you'll be motivated to tell them that their offer is "a good starting point for discussion" and then make a counter-offer or ask for additional vacation, bonuses, or…

This may seem like I'm being dismissive but I don't want to work anywhere. I work because I have bills that need to be paid. I don't derive enjoyment from making other people wealthy. I legitimately cannot think of such a state as enjoying work nor enjoying working at any given company in particular. Do you, and if so how did you cultivate that? If you don't mind answering.

I'll grant you, "enjoying work" is rarely, if ever, a thing. The choice might come down to "less bad", but there's still a range of work situations. By "companies you'd like to work with" I mean companies shipping products or services that resonate with you, using tech your interested in, and development processes you don't hate. I don't like working in fintech, for example, so that's a place I wouldn't interview unless I was in need of money. Others might really love the idea of working as staff at academic institutions, and be will to accept less money in exchange for other things.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#64

Post by pc86 »

t0mas88 wrote: post #62
pc86 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never had issues with this approach. Yeah you'll get a few people who think they're being cute about wanting to schedule a call or whatever, but when it comes down to it "I don't move forward without knowing the budgeted range for a position" gets me a number probably 19 out of 20 times, almost always the first time too.

It makes no sense at all for the company or recruiter to hide the range for you. Because they would be wasting their timing doing all kinds of meetings if your expected number is far above that range.

I don't think the company with the $120-150k range is trying to hide it from the person who wants $200k, I think they're trying to hide it from the person who wants $110k. If you tell them $200k they just stop talking to you. If you tell them $110k they write it down and carry along with the process and a little green $110k next to your name.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#65

Post by deciplex »

itsoktocry wrote: post #13

Not talking about your salary history is a decent tip. But negotiation isn't rocket science: you need to be thoughtful and honest to yourself and come up with an aspirational number (what you want, best case) and a floor (which you will not go below). Any number in between should be acceptable to you, by definition. I find the hardest thing for people is being honest about the floor and being willing to walk away.

I think part of the (perhaps unconscious) resistance to thinking clearly about the floor is that the hiring side (i.e. people who do this every day, rather than once every few years) have a knack for sussing out what that floor is and ensuring that that's what you get and not a penny more.

Maybe there is a kind of madman theory of salary negotiation as well, heh: throw out some numbers, don't think about it too much, randomly blow up the negotiation for any reason, or for no reason, etc.

For my part I just accept that I'll be getting the floor or very close to it.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#66

Post by t0mas88 »

tshaddox wrote: post #59
t0mas88 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The floor should be the number that you don't feel bad about accepting. That indeed includes your perception of alternatives. If your floor is higher than what you're going to get, you'll miss a few jobs and then learn that your expectations should be lower. That makes the new floor acceptable. There isn't really a shortcut, because if you feel like you've accepted an offer below your minimum and never applied for ot…

> If your floor is higher than what you're going to get, you'll miss a few jobs and then learn that your expectations should be lower. That makes the new floor acceptable. Right, but this process is only acceptable if you believe that you have more than a few options in the near future.

Yes but this whole article is about people that have many many options and considering 400k offers.

If you don't expect much options, just accept one and continue looking for the next one?

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#68

Post by cratermoon »

photonerd wrote: post #17
cratermoon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you avoid wasting your time doing interviews Simple. Only interview with companies you'd like to work with so much that you'd be willing to negotiate from a starting offer 2/3rds of what you want. When your interest in the company is sufficient, you'll be motivated to tell them that their offer is "a good starting point for discussion" and then make a counter-offer or ask for additional vacation, bonuses, or…

> Only interview with companies you'd like to work with so much that you'd be willing to negotiate from a starting offer 2/3rds of what you want. So… literally no-where then? Because anywhere that would offer 2/3rds is not a company I’d want to work for.

This might come as a shock, but some people aren't motivated by money beyond the basic need to afford to live in the market the way they want. Some would be willing to take that offer if the position included a variety of attractive intangibles.

To put it another way, "total compensation package" for some people includes things that aren't money but have a value roughly equal to some amount of money for that person.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#69

Post by at-fates-hands »

itsoktocry wrote: post #13

Not talking about your salary history is a decent tip. But negotiation isn't rocket science: you need to be thoughtful and honest to yourself and come up with an aspirational number (what you want, best case) and a floor (which you will not go below). Any number in between should be acceptable to you, by definition. I find the hardest thing for people is being honest about the floor and being willing to walk away.

>> But negotiation isn't rocket science

Its more like a poker game. The more information you know, the more advantageous your position will be.

When recruiters ask me a range, I typically go 20%-30% above what I'm currently making as the starting point and about 10% below what I'm actually making as the floor. I also always tell the recruiter I'm open to negotiating.

This usually gets a reaction from the recruiter. They either tell me I'm asking too much and will give me the actual range the company is looking for or they say, "Oh that's perfect, its right in the range the company is looking for."

That information on its own will tell you whether its worth it to continue or not in 99% of the situations.

Re: Common mistakes in salary negotiation

#70

Post by jawns »

sneak wrote: post #55
jawns wrote: post #42

> Preparation and leverage means doing the work to make sure that you have multiple offers, that all your offers come in at the same time, and that you don’t tip your hand too early. Laying this foundation is 80% of the work. You’ll need to slow some companies down, speed some companies up, and hold off questions from recruiters until you’re ready to negotiate, and not before. Laying this foundation is largely unachi…

Would you work 80 hour weeks for a month or two to make an additional $5-20k per month indefinitely for the foreseeable future? I would. It's not like it's impossible, it's just more work.

This feels like a "mythical man month" fallacy.

Say you're working a standard 9-to-5. Sure, you can submit applications during the evenings, but once you get your foot in the door, you're constrained by the business hours of the place where you're applying.

Most job interviews take place during normal business hours. You might be able to take your lunch hour to do a phone screen, or you might be able to take off a couple of days of PTO for an on-site interview.

But you can't work your normal 9-5 and then expect to do all your job interviews from 5-midnight.

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