Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands • Hacker News Board

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#661

Post by toenail » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:53 PM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #654

mrguyorama wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Otherwise known as "Your society has actually advanced the payments and banking industries beyond the 60s that the US is perpetually stuck in" People don't use cash because there are better options that better meet their needs. Most people's needs don't include "the government can't know I'm buying this"

How is that argument different from banning Signal? eg: People don't use end-to-end encrypted messaging because there are better options that better meet their needs. Most people's needs don't include "the government can't know I'm saying this". Is there really no monetary exchange you've made in your life that, if your government knew about, could get you into trouble? And are you so confident in the future of your…

> Is there really no monetary exchange you've made in your life that, if your government knew about, could get you into trouble?

It's not just the monetary exchange itself, financial transactions include a counterparty and location info too.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#662

Post by arp242 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:53 PM UTC

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #567

dijit wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID. A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. (for example: I didn't when I got my first bank account). My first bank account was a deal my mother made with the bank where she acted as guarantor. having a right to a thing is not the same as actually getting it; there is a lot of anti-fraud legisl…

> You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID. Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered. > A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. Anyone age 14 and up is required by law to be able to show an ID when asked. So yeah, everyone here has an ID. > My first bank account was…

> Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

You can't "just" get it if you don't have a fixed address, or if the address isn't eligible for registration (the rules for that are rather strict).

Netherlands is one if the hardest countries if you end up in an "exceptional" situation; you can work around "proof of address" (not always, but frequently), but it's much harder to work around the municipal registration.

Yes, there are rules for exceptions (e.g. "briefadres") and there's stuff like https://www.basisbankrekening.nl – but in reality people are so strict with this that it might as well not exist for vast swaths of people.

If you've never been in an exceptional situation you think it's easy and works grand, and it does, right up to the point it doesn't, at which point you're pretty fucked. People are unaware because they've never experienced it, but it's really awful.

Last year it took me 5 months and a lot of proverbial "banging fist on the table" to get a bank account in the Netherlands. It took me about 2 weeks in Ireland. Just sayin'

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#663

Post by JW_00000 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:04 PM UTC

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #453

elric wrote: post #316

That's been the case for years in Belgium. I like cash, and use it whenever I can. But I can't say this limit ever affected me in any way. Largest cash transaction I ever did wasn't even half that. You can't even get your hands on that much with ease anymore. ATMs are capped at less than that. Most (all?) banks will refuse to hand you that much cash. Unless you run a business which accepts a lot of cash, the odds of…

That’s flat out unacceptable. It’s your money. If you walk into a bank and ask for all of it, they should have enough on hand to give it all to you for a normal individuals account. It’s not the bank’s money or the governments money to decide where it gets stored or how it gets spent. You worked hours of your life to earn that money, years of your life that you traded for cash that the government says you can’t be tr…

Note that the restriction only applies to _cash_ money. If I have €100,000 in my bank account and do a transfer to another bank account, it happens for free and (almost, depending on the circumstances) instantly. If I go to the bank and ask for that €100,000 in cash, I won't get it. I personally consider this an okay restriction of my freedom if it means drug cartels and large-scale criminals can be caught.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#664

Post by JW_00000 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:06 PM UTC

nmilo wrote: post #491

Curious because I've never done it, how do people buy used cars off classifieds other than with cash? Checks can bounce, e-transfers can be reversed, etc. Seems any method other than cash is very susceptible to scams.

Just scan a QR code. The Netherlands has iDeal and Tikkie; Belgium has Payconiq; not sure about other European countries.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#665

Post by mywittyname » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:09 PM UTC

halfdan wrote: post #241

mywittyname wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a Macbook Pro 16" M2 and a Samsung Odyssey Neo G9 at the same time from the same place.

And you clearly want to carry 3000+ EUR in your pocket than paying by card? Europe is safe, but I will definitely not walk around with that much cash on my person.

It's not a problem. I regularly pay for four-figure items in cash. Lots of places offer cash discounts at that price point (no CC fees or risk of chargeback). I paid a doctor $5000 in cash once.

The first time, it feels a little odd, but then you realize that nobody at the bank bats an eye at you withdrawing a few grand, and $3k in 100s is about the size of a phone in your pocket.

Since nobody carries cash, nobody thinks that other people are carrying cash, so it doesn't make you a target. And I'm not anymore likely to lose my wallet with $500 in cash in it than I am my $1000 phone.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#666

Post by chollida1 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:10 PM UTC

NorwegianDude wrote: post #575

chollida1 wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was assuming payment for things like contractors or furnace repair that don't walk around with visa terminals. I agree that in a grocery store, it is far easier to pay with a card.

But people usually do have a terminal to accept payment. If not, they usually just send you an invoice. Makes bookkeeping much simpler for the business too. I have only paid in-person using NFC for nearly 10 years in Norway. I understand that the situation is different other places, but I'm literally not sure what our physical currency looks like now. However, I walked into a store in Spain yesterday that was cash on…

> ow I have cash in EUR that I not only overpaid insanely for because of the ATM , but I also can't use it in Norway

Ha, well you'll have a heart attack when you look at your visa statement and realized that visa can charge even worse rates for currency conversion than ATM's do.

Plus visa charges the vendor a fee( around 2ish%) that has to be born by the buyer and seller. Cash doesn't have this built in tax.

Now I'll admit I have no idea bout Norway, so maybe you have some special way to pay with zero transaction fees and have the cash show up instantly with no holds on the payment ever, if so, good for you guys.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#667

Post by ClarityJones » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

volent wrote: post #343

ClarityJones wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash is money. Cash is immune to bank runs. If you have $10,000, then you have $10,000. If you deposit $10,000 in a bank, then you have $0 and a promise from a bank that has $1,000 and a promise (from somebody else) for $9,000.

That is not true in most of Europe. Money you deposit in a bank is guaranteed by the state up to a certain limit (often 100 000€ per person per bank). Source (french) : https://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/educational/explainers/tell-me... > Selon la réglementation européenne, ces systèmes assurent 100 000 euros par déposant. > (DeepL) According to European regulations, these systems guarantee 100,000 euros per depositor.

A guarantee is just another promise. So, you have a promise from the bank and a promise from the government.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#668

Post by dmarchand90 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:28 PM UTC

lost_tourist wrote: post #630

dmarchand90 wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How important is this rule really? Particularly when the title gives the main message. I ask because auto translation is almost perfect for at least all the European languages. I agree maybe there should be a bias towards English but this seems a reasonable exception here

It's very important for proper understanding of such things as translation is currently really not up to HN quality expectations just yet. Maybe in the future as AI gets better at it

For me this translation is extremely easy to understand:

What is the maximum amount I can pay in cash? At this time, you may pay for all purchases in cash. For cash purchases above € 10,000, the seller must conduct a customer due diligence. But not all sellers accept cash. The cabinet is working on a bill to ban cash payments from € 3,000.

Pay for purchases in cash At this time, you may pay for all purchases in cash. It doesn't matter how high the amount is. A seller can decide not to accept cash above a certain amount. Or not accepting cash at all .

Customer research for purchases above € 10,000 Do you make a purchase that costs more than € 10,000 and do you pay in cash? Then the seller must conduct a customer due diligence . This check is mandatory to prevent money laundering and terrorist financing.

Bill cash payments up to € 3,000 A bill is being drafted to ban cash payments from €3,000 . This applies to all buyers and sellers of goods. When the new law comes into effect, you may no longer pay for purchases from € 3,000 in cash.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#669

Post by tkz1312 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:30 PM UTC

This kind of absurd bullshit is exactly why crypto is so important. Access to cash like money is a human right, and this right is being rapidly eroded across the world.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#670

Post by tkz1312 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:31 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #166

SileNce5k wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice to see that there's no limit where I live which is Norway. Hopefully, there are no plans to introduce one.

I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR?

because you don’t want the government to be able to delete you from the economy? do you use signal? what’s the difference between strong privacy for your text messages and strong privacy for your financial transactions?