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Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

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Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#31

Post by scarface_74 »

taeric wrote: post #6
coldtea wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, you are not a monopoly on your own platform, but working with anyone to raise the prices on another platform is illegal under this framework, as well. That's when the players the work with form a "cartel". And even there it's not an antitrust case until we're talking about a majority of combined share. Else two or more two-bit players deciding to sell at the same price is not a cartel (nor a trust). If…

I picked that example because Apple has already lost in that scenario before. :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc . There is also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... , so Apple hasn't exactly been free of antitrust legislation in the past...

Yes because Apple was trying to give publishers control over their own prices as opposed to the company that actually had a monopoly - Amazon

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#32

Post by taeric »

scarface_74 wrote: post #31
taeric wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I picked that example because Apple has already lost in that scenario before. :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc . There is also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... , so Apple hasn't exactly been free of antitrust legislation in the past...

Yes because Apple was trying to give publishers control over their own prices as opposed to the company that actually had a monopoly - Amazon

This is incoherent? Apple was the one that was found guilty under antitrust laws there, not Amazon.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#33

Post by taeric »

scarface_74 wrote: post #30
taeric wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antitrust isn't limited to only monopolies. That is just the most easily discussed violation, no? For example, you are not a monopoly on your own platform, but working with anyone to raise the prices on another platform is illegal under this framework, as well.

That has nothing to do with being a monopoly. That’s collusion.

That is... my point? Antitrust laws are not confined to monopoly concerns. To try and steer the conversation into that direction is a non-sequitur that doesn't necessarily matter. The headline isn't "textbook case of monopoly abuse."

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#34

Post by ungruntled »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #25
HumblyTossed wrote: post #22

> Since the developer had no idea what it was supposed to have done wrong, it was unable to meet Apple’s appeal requirement of explaining what happened, and how it has resolved the issue. The appeal was thus denied. If nothing else, Apple should fix this. There is ZERO reason to be anything other than 100% transparent.

There is ZERO reason to be anything other than 100% transparent. The customary rationale, at least around here, goes something like "B...b...b...but if we actually document the rules and tell you what you did wrong, it helps the BAD GUYS!!!11!!"

I agree. Imagine a legal system where the laws are hidden from citizens and they are only informed of their guilt without meaningful appeal. I feel that any severed contract should require a clear reason with evidence along with an real opportunity for a rebuttal. If that fails then the court system can handle the rest. I used to believe that companies should be allowed to halt business with whomever they please, but this is really just being abused by large companies to avoid the costs of scaling their business.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#35

Post by summerlight »

scarface_74 wrote: post #26
arrosenberg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For starters, Apple is not a monopoly. You are not a monopoly on your own platform Doesn't matter. Antitrust laws address competition, monopoly is just a subset. The Apple App Store is an 800lb Gorilla is the app space, ergo, subject to pro-competition laws. The app developer can't sell his app on iPhones via another channel, iPhones make up a substantial part of the market, and that's why those laws exist and appl…

Luckily, we have a real judge in a real court in the Epic vs Apple lawsuit where the judge said that Apple isn’t a monopoly.

Please do not distort the court decision. No official entities (such as FTC or DoJ) were involved in this case, it's just a private firm that failed to prove Apple's illegal monopoly (which is also different from market monopoly and/or antitrust conduct). Gonzalez has already explicitly revoked your statement.

> "While the Court finds that Apple enjoys considerable market share of over 55% and extraordinarily high profit margins, these factors alone do not show antitrust conduct," Gonzalez Rogers said. "The Court does not find that it is impossible; only that Epic Games failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist."

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#36

Post by anonymousab »

scarface_74 wrote: post #27
bfdm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's monopolistic. What standard are you comparing to? You don't need to have 100% of the market to exert monopoly control. Non-monopoly behavior would be users and developers having the choice to offer & install iOS apps outside of Apple's app store, but choosing the app store because the trade-off of fees is considered fair for the trust & platform convenience gained in exchange.

> What standard are you comparing to A real judge saying that Apple isn’t a monopoly… https://www.businesstoday.in/technology/story/resounding-vic...

> the judge cleared the Cupertino-based company of monopolistic malpractices

That does not appear to be anything like affirming that they are not a monopoly. One can be a monopoly without being guilty of anticompetitive monopolistic behavior. Likewise, Epic failing to make their narrow case is not a statement of absolute fact about Apple's market or industry position; it is a statement that Epic's specific argument was not valid or sufficient to confirm their claims.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#37

Post by lapcat »

stalfosknight wrote: post #12
lapcat wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are not a monopoly on your own platform, especially if that platform doesn't even have the majority of the relevant market. iPhone has a market share of almost 70% in Japan, the location of the plaintiff. iPhone also has a market share of over 50% now in the United States, by the way. > A company makes a platform or product so that they dictate the terms and if it's a marketplace, what and how it accepts to sel…

> Phone has a market share of almost 70% in Japan, the location of the plaintiff. iPhone also has a market share of over 50% now in the United States, by the way. Neither one of those market shares are monopolies. > Historical revisionism. For more than 30 years prior to iOS, general-purpose computing platforms were mostly open with no vendor-controlled store. If you don't like the iOS platform then don't develop for…

> If you don't like the iOS platform then don't develop for it or buy iOS devices. There is an endless kaleidoscope of Android devices you can choose from.

I didn't say I don't like the iOS platform. I said there's one thing about it that I don't like. Smartphones are very complex devices with countless features, both software and hardware. It's absolutely absurd to say to people, "If you don't like [specific thing] about this hugely complex device, then buy another brand." Moreover, there is no perfect device out there, otherwise I would buy it. Everything is a compromise, with pros and cons. And yes, there are cons. But there are also pros.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#38

Post by stalfosknight »

tadfisher wrote: post #20
stalfosknight wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Phone has a market share of almost 70% in Japan, the location of the plaintiff. iPhone also has a market share of over 50% now in the United States, by the way. Neither one of those market shares are monopolies. > Historical revisionism. For more than 30 years prior to iOS, general-purpose computing platforms were mostly open with no vendor-controlled store. If you don't like the iOS platform then don't develop for…

One can like the iOS platform and still advocate for general-purpose computing. I don't understand why folks on Hacker News, of all places, defend walled gardens so vehemently.

What you call a "walled garden" someone else would call an openly opinionated, thoughtfully designed, and well managed platform with seamless integration and world-class support.

Again, if that's not your thing you're perfectly free to spend your money elsewhere.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#39

Post by owisd »

scarface_74 wrote: post #26
arrosenberg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For starters, Apple is not a monopoly. You are not a monopoly on your own platform Doesn't matter. Antitrust laws address competition, monopoly is just a subset. The Apple App Store is an 800lb Gorilla is the app space, ergo, subject to pro-competition laws. The app developer can't sell his app on iPhones via another channel, iPhones make up a substantial part of the market, and that's why those laws exist and appl…

Luckily, we have a real judge in a real court in the Epic vs Apple lawsuit where the judge said that Apple isn’t a monopoly.

Not ruled a monopoly only in the market of digital mobile gaming transactions. But it’s not illegal to be a monopoly, the judge still ruled they broke competition law by banning Epic from linking to their own store front.

Re: Japanese game publisher Digital Will has filed a lawsuit against Apple

#40

Post by scarface_74 »

taeric wrote: post #32
scarface_74 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because Apple was trying to give publishers control over their own prices as opposed to the company that actually had a monopoly - Amazon

This is incoherent? Apple was the one that was found guilty under antitrust laws there, not Amazon.

That’s just the point. The ruling was incoherent.

Amazon was deciding the prices of ebooks and taking a loss selling them below what the publishers were selling them to Amazon. This was hurting the publishers physical books sells. The publishers wanted to control their own prices. But one punisher couldn’t pull their books from Amazon unless they all did.

Apple was working as a go between for all of the publishers and wanted to give the publishers the right to set their own prices and Apple would take a cut. This is where the case came in.

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