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Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

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Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#151

Post by onereplyac2 »

amilich wrote: post #144
tptacek wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What difference does this make to the thread model in the previous comment?

Before this basic cryptography was downloaded via JS files which yields no security and gave web cryptography a bad reputation. That is not true now.

Huh? It is very concerning to hear this from a founder. It is the same exact level of security as it is executing the same code, just at a different level. Really does not matter what crypto lib you are using if at the end of the day the surrounding code dictates all the security.

Regardless of all this, your open source crypto library doesn't even use the Web Crypto APIs at all, but rather the dreaded js based crypto you are badmouthing (tweetnacl, stablelib)

Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#152

Post by onereplyac2 »

amilich wrote: post #150
onereplyac wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal email proiders don't dowbload all emails whenever a user logs into a new device

We also don't do this. In a near future implementation you can just synchronize the end-to-end encrypted search index.

You mean you currently do this but plan not to in the future

Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#153

Post by onereplyac2 »

amilich wrote: post #146
onereplyac wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The encryption happens after the server recieves the plaintext email and passes it to the client...

No, this is done with public-key encryption which does not require the client.

Again, only between users with skiff emails, which is a negligible portion of all emails. This needs to be made clear as it is very misleading to the average user who probably thinks all emails are end to end encrypted.

Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#154

Post by progbits »

rvnx wrote: post #128
progbits wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just someONE, whole bunch of researchers and automated scans.

You can change remote configuration flags post-release (e.g. to enable diagnostics). Even “secure” softwares like Google Chrome can capture your whole browsing history if they suddenly decide to enable a flag on your IP address. No need for conspiracy or update, though Chrome is considered perfectly secure. In Android you can also distribute updates to specific e-mail addresses, which is very convenient.

> In Android you can also distribute updates to specific e-mail addresses, which is very convenient.

Yes but this requires the user to opt-in, you can't do it silently:

> After clicking the opt-in link, your testers will get an explanation of what it means to be a tester and a link to opt in. Each tester needs to opt in using the link.

Source: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...

As for the Chrome thing, I'm a Firefox user but I would be surprised if it shipped with the option to remotely upload whole history without user's knowledge or consent, do you have a source to back that up?

Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#155

Post by amilich »

onereplyac2 wrote: post #153
amilich wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is done with public-key encryption which does not require the client.

Again, only between users with skiff emails, which is a negligible portion of all emails. This needs to be made clear as it is very misleading to the average user who probably thinks all emails are end to end encrypted.

No: Skiff does not have access to a single email stored on our platform, including ones received externally. All are public-key encrypted, including subjects and content.

Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#156

Post by onereplyac2 »

amilich wrote: post #155
onereplyac2 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, only between users with skiff emails, which is a negligible portion of all emails. This needs to be made clear as it is very misleading to the average user who probably thinks all emails are end to end encrypted.

No: Skiff does not have access to a single email stored on our platform, including ones received externally. All are public-key encrypted, including subjects and content.

This is encryption at rest, with the user holding the keys, and not end to end to end encryption, since the server recieves emails coming outaide of akiff in unencrypted form to begin with.

As a simple demonstration, even if client side code is perfectly secure, an adversary with server control can simply log all emails passing through the server and instantly have access to all new user emails that way. This means users have to trust the server, contradicting any notion of E2EE.

Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#157

Post by [deleted] »

onereplyac2 wrote: post #156
amilich wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No: Skiff does not have access to a single email stored on our platform, including ones received externally. All are public-key encrypted, including subjects and content.

This is encryption at rest, with the user holding the keys, and not end to end to end encryption, since the server recieves emails coming outaide of akiff in unencrypted form to begin with. As a simple demonstration, even if client side code is perfectly secure, an adversary with server control can simply log all emails passing through the server and instantly have access to all new user emails that way. This means u…

[deleted]

Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#158

Post by amilich »

onereplyac wrote: post #113
nicce wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We might be talking about different encryption, since that does not sound E2EE at all. The point of the encryption is that server never sees the content. But that is true that if you use skiff to send message for someone, who is not using skiff, the message is unencrypted because receiver has no means to decrypt it. That is standrdisation issue. Apparantly PGP is not considered good enough. But if we had standards, w…

Totally agree... it is just disappointing that services like Skiff advertise total E2EE to unsuspecting users with no mention of this in their marketing, luring users into a false sense of security

Skiff encrypts all received emails with user public keys immediately on receipt. This is quite clear in our security model page and whitepaper. Skiff does not have access to any user emails, including external received ones.

Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#159

Post by nicce »

amilich wrote: post #158
onereplyac wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree... it is just disappointing that services like Skiff advertise total E2EE to unsuspecting users with no mention of this in their marketing, luring users into a false sense of security

Skiff encrypts all received emails with user public keys immediately on receipt. This is quite clear in our security model page and whitepaper. Skiff does not have access to any user emails, including external received ones.

Unfortunately this does not matter, since the trust model is same as it would not be encrypted at all. We still need to trust the third party.

Somehow the infrastructure should be transparent so that outsider can verify indeed at any time, that you don't collect logs from that traffic, or have no other means to inspect traffic if you want to.

There are currently no other means than just to use E2E encryption.

There is also another almost there, but that would mean that you should open-source your whole infrastructure, and use reproducible builds. Somehow there should be way to get access for outsiders, that you indeed use your infrastructure as you describe in your source code. But this is very complicated and also changeable at any time, unlike E2EE.

Re: Skiff – Privacy-first end-to-end encrypted email

#160

Post by mike-cardwell »

amilich wrote: post #148
mike-cardwell wrote: post #141

"privacy first" Yet the web UI downloads remote images by default. Granted, it hides your IP address by proxying the request. But it still leaks that the message was read. I used https://www.emailprivacytester.com to test this. No image was fetched until I clicked the email to read it.

We offer a block remote content feature. There is no foolproof way to load any remote content without possibly exposing email open information.

My point was that defaults matter, and your default is not privacy preserving. Yet you claim to be a "privacy first" service. There are many email clients which do not download remote content by default. I would argue that they preserve privacy better than Skiff does.
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