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Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

apnews.com

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Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#21
post #17

Is there any actual evidence for this? The article is all hearsay...

Quoting an actual person at the scene is not hearsay, is it?

I don't see a quote from anyone who saw people turn around and die as a result. I see a quote from someone talking about how it would have been bad to make a wrong turn. And another about people stuck in traffic. But those are not the same as what the headline claims.

And those are the 2 salient points in an article thick with emotion and implications.

Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But they present no evidence to support their claims...

Given the general anarchy and confusion, I

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#22
post #7

Tragic events like this can be a reminder that the only person responsible for your safety is You. You Cannot rely on "officials" or rules to care more about you than you do. Trust your gut, maintain awareness. Do not be lulled into complacency by safety theatre.

See also, physical health, financial planning, life decisions, personal safety, and psychological well-being.

Ultimately, the buck stops with the individual, and you can't completely outsource personal responsibility.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#23

Survival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people still follow government like they have some divine knowledge Government works best which is subservient to the people, the second it becomes something else bad things will happen

No. Government generally has a much better big picture than you do and thus is more likely to get it right. Where they typically get it wrong is avoiding a known small risk vs a possible bigger risk. However, in this case it seems to be a known small risk vs a certain much bigger risk.

Strong disagree. The government big picture sets heuristics that makes sense for a lot of people a lot of the time. Even when it's right, it does not take into account personal circumstance which is only knowable to the individual.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#24
Everyone's focused on the barricades (orange cones from the sound of it) but this caught my eye at the end:

> “The gridlock would have left us there when the firestorm came,” Cuevas-Reyes, 38, told the AP. “I would have had to tell my children to jump into the ocean as well and be boiled alive by the flames or we would have just died from smoke inhalation and roasted in the car.”

That kind of gridlock is why we have all of those giant stroads everyone loves to complain about every few blocks in California. A few years ago my house was one mile from a wildfire in SoCal and the two lane road was overwhelmed during the evacuation despite only supporting a small exurban population. Now at my new suburban house, the neighboring development recently got halted after only building out 20% of the units because the fire marshal calculated that our surrounding roads wouldn't be able to support the traffic in case of evacuation. The developer is trying to get a new freeway on-ramp approved atm, otherwise they'll have to switch from dense 5-over-1s to single family homes in the rest of the development.

This is a reminder for everyone to download and print out the evacuation routes and tape them to the inside of your door! When done correctly, they're carefully designed to allow as many people to get out as fast as possible without causing gridlock while still allowing emergency vehicles in.

Unfortunately this is all carried out at the state and local level so it takes a tragedy like Lahaina for people to really start investing in proper (sub)urban and emergency planning.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#25

Survival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people still follow government like they have some divine knowledge Government works best which is subservient to the people, the second it becomes something else bad things will happen

No. Government generally has a much better big picture than you do and thus is more likely to get it right. Where they typically get it wrong is avoiding a known small risk vs a possible bigger risk. However, in this case it seems to be a known small risk vs a certain much bigger risk.

I am not sure how anyone can claim this with a strait face having lived through 2020-2023.... which is living memory so I do not have to do back into the recorded history to show government failure. I can just talk about my lived experience at how completely incompetent government is at managing "emergencies"

Central planning is always bad, be it for emergencies or economics or anything else

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#26

Survival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people still follow government like they have some divine knowledge Government works best which is subservient to the people, the second it becomes something else bad things will happen

No. Government generally has a much better big picture than you do and thus is more likely to get it right. Where they typically get it wrong is avoiding a known small risk vs a possible bigger risk. However, in this case it seems to be a known small risk vs a certain much bigger risk.

I recommend the book "Seeing Like a State" by James C. Scott:

>Scott shows how central governments attempt to force legibility on their subjects, and fail to see complex, valuable forms of local social order and knowledge. A main theme of this book, illustrated by his historic examples, is that states operate systems of power toward 'legibility' in order to see their subjects correctly in a top-down, modernist, model that is flawed, problematic, and often ends poorly for subjects. The goal of local legibility by the state is transparency from the top down, from the top of the tower or the center/seat of the government, so the state can effectively operate upon their subjects.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State#:~:text=....

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#27

Survival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people still follow government like they have some divine knowledge Government works best which is subservient to the people, the second it becomes something else bad things will happen

Good luck ignoring the next government-issued evacuation order or shelter-in-place order in your region then.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#28

Survival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people still follow government like they have some divine knowledge Government works best which is subservient to the people, the second it becomes something else bad things will happen

Good luck ignoring the next government-issued evacuation order or shelter-in-place order in your region then.

I have done both of those in the past, and likely will do so again in the future.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#30

Survival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people still follow government like they have some divine knowledge Government works best which is subservient to the people, the second it becomes something else bad things will happen

No. Government generally has a much better big picture than you do and thus is more likely to get it right. Where they typically get it wrong is avoiding a known small risk vs a possible bigger risk. However, in this case it seems to be a known small risk vs a certain much bigger risk.

> much better big picture

Yeah, the big picture includes sacrificing you in favor of somebody more "important" than you.

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