Slavery's last stronghold • Hacker News Board

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#21

Post by mtts » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 8:35 AM UTC

H_E_Pennypacker wrote: post #2

I don't mean to undermine this powerful report but slavery is alive and growing across the planet. I think it's important to remember that there are higher percentages of slaves in the world now than there were back in the days the Western world considers the slave era. So, Mauritania is far from being the last stronghold. Al Jazeera and Rageh Omar produced an excellent series on modern day slavery.

Indeed. And most slavery in the world today is extremely complicated (in order to make it less obvious that it is in fact slavery) and nasty, making the slavery discussed in this article almost seem benign by comparison: it's out in plain view, it involves black people and it takes place in a backwards country far, far away.

Much different from, say, indentured servants in Dubai, Eastern European prostitutes or illegal immigrants in Europe.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#22

Post by wisty » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 8:52 AM UTC

H_E_Pennypacker wrote: post #2

I don't mean to undermine this powerful report but slavery is alive and growing across the planet. I think it's important to remember that there are higher percentages of slaves in the world now than there were back in the days the Western world considers the slave era. So, Mauritania is far from being the last stronghold. Al Jazeera and Rageh Omar produced an excellent series on modern day slavery.

I half expected it to be an article on the US prison system, or the abuse of indentured migrant workers (Dubai was the poster child for a time).

But this seems worse. It's not people who were conned, or made bad decisions but people who were born into slavery. Westerners have a big bias towards rational choice - there's an assumption that it's always worse to deprive someone of choice in the first place than to take advantage of their mistakes; without considering any of the context.

A burglar is often assumed to be worse than a con artist, even if the con artist steals far more. Sometimes we may take this assumption to an illogical extreme.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#23

Post by olavk » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 8:58 AM UTC

H_E_Pennypacker wrote: post #2

I don't mean to undermine this powerful report but slavery is alive and growing across the planet. I think it's important to remember that there are higher percentages of slaves in the world now than there were back in the days the Western world considers the slave era. So, Mauritania is far from being the last stronghold. Al Jazeera and Rageh Omar produced an excellent series on modern day slavery.

Don't you mean that there are higher absolute numbers of slaves today? I have a hard time believing that there is a larger percentage of slaves today than in the roman empire. That would mean there is something like a billion slaves today.

Edit: Wikipedia says there are estimated 12-27 millions slaves today, which is a lot of people, but certainly not as high a percentage of the worlds population.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#24

Post by jMyles » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 9:07 AM UTC

Seriously? How about the US Prison system?

13th Amendment:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, '''except''' as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#25

Post by wisty » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 9:12 AM UTC

maxklein wrote: post #17

No, don't believe this. The world is a very complex place, and what makes for a good story is often very different from what reality is. When American journalists write about the world, they write as if the world is America. Stories are broken down into us vs them, people become black and white, some people are assigned the label 'good' and some the label 'bad'. Everything gets americanised, even the american obsessi…

The video is better. It points out that there's a continuum. I couldn't help but think of tenant farmers or sharecroppers. Tenant farmers could be free, or bonded to the land. There was a continuum from wealthy tenants (who hired workers) to serfs to slaves. It seems that a lot of Mauritania sits all over that continuum.

Most of the problem could simply be that they don't have anywhere else to go. But it's a little spooky that their government seems to be in cahoots with the slave owning classes.

On the other hand - look what happened to Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) when the land owners were disenfranchised, and their farms given to cronies of the new government - the whole place fell into a famine because the new "masters" couldn't farm.

There's no surefire way (to my knowledge) to reconstruct a country which has just come out of slavery. My gut reaction would be incrementalism - find ways of punishing the worst offenders so the bad (but not terrible) land/slave owners don't feel threatened. Then slowly start moving up the chain - punish physical abuse, then ensure freedom of movement, then look at land redistribution and better political representation. At no stage should a large portion of the population (i.e. every land / slave owner) feel threatened, just a small fraction of them.

You'd make a false distinction between "landlords" and "slavers". First you go for the people who murder their slaves, and the "landlords" won't resist because they don't murder their slaves. Then you go for the ones who beat their slaves, then the ones who restrict movement, then the ones who don't pay wages ...

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#26

Post by TheShihan » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 9:30 AM UTC

maxklein wrote: post #17

No, don't believe this. The world is a very complex place, and what makes for a good story is often very different from what reality is. When American journalists write about the world, they write as if the world is America. Stories are broken down into us vs them, people become black and white, some people are assigned the label 'good' and some the label 'bad'. Everything gets americanised, even the american obsessi…

I see you repeating again and again and not providing any background information and facts. What's exactly your problem with the article. Have you found any errors or biased stuff? If so, please highlight it for us.

I get the strange feeling that you have a problem with the article because it shows that not only white people are able to enslave other human beings. Maybe you should have a look at the history of slavery in islam.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#27

Post by maxklein » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 10:22 AM UTC

mtts wrote: post #20

maxklein wrote: post #17

No, don't believe this. The world is a very complex place, and what makes for a good story is often very different from what reality is. When American journalists write about the world, they write as if the world is America. Stories are broken down into us vs them, people become black and white, some people are assigned the label 'good' and some the label 'bad'. Everything gets americanised, even the american obsessi…

Except this is not a single story but something that's been known for quite some time: https://www.google.nl/search?hl=en&noj=1&site=webhp&...

Your search seems to only shows western articles.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#28

Post by pbiggar » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 10:32 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #22

H_E_Pennypacker wrote: post #2

I don't mean to undermine this powerful report but slavery is alive and growing across the planet. I think it's important to remember that there are higher percentages of slaves in the world now than there were back in the days the Western world considers the slave era. So, Mauritania is far from being the last stronghold. Al Jazeera and Rageh Omar produced an excellent series on modern day slavery.

I half expected it to be an article on the US prison system, or the abuse of indentured migrant workers (Dubai was the poster child for a time). But this seems worse. It's not people who were conned, or made bad decisions but people who were born into slavery. Westerners have a big bias towards rational choice - there's an assumption that it's always worse to deprive someone of choice in the first place than to take…

I read a book about slavery by the guy who runs "Free the Slaves". It gave 6 case studies of slavery in the modern world, and Mauritani was one of them. It was the only one which seemed remotely humane.

In all of the others - ranging from indentured servanthood (yes, still slavery) in India and Pakistan, to kidnapped children in Brazil - the people were treated as expendable. Work them til they die, then get new slaves. By contrast, the institutional slavery in Mauritania, slaves are often treated like family.

I don't think we should argue which is worse - many have given their lives for their freedom so it doesn't seem like we can decide which is more important - but I don't think how they got in their situation makes them worse. (And rereading your comments now, perhaps we actually agree on this).

A final note: many other slaves are born into slavery, certainly indentured servants often pass on their debt to their children, and similar with lower caste slaves in India. In Thailand, parents are known to sell their young girls to the sex trade, which is roughly the same.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#29

Post by pbiggar » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 10:35 AM UTC

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #15

A semi-slavery, in a smaller isolated situation, still exists these days in some of the Arab countries and Malaysia where households will recruit servants (maid of the house) from a country such as Indonesia and pretty much did the usual drill: - Ask the maid to work inhumanly - Giving no vacation or "day out with friends" - Held hostage the passport - Occasionally raped or violent beating (sometime by using a very h…

Please don't refer to this practice as 'semi-slavery'. It is slavery. If you are held against your will and made work, it is slavery (and is in fact defined by the UN as such, as I recall).

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#30

Post by bmj » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 10:41 AM UTC

olavk wrote: post #23

H_E_Pennypacker wrote: post #2

I don't mean to undermine this powerful report but slavery is alive and growing across the planet. I think it's important to remember that there are higher percentages of slaves in the world now than there were back in the days the Western world considers the slave era. So, Mauritania is far from being the last stronghold. Al Jazeera and Rageh Omar produced an excellent series on modern day slavery.

Don't you mean that there are higher absolute numbers of slaves today? I have a hard time believing that there is a larger percentage of slaves today than in the roman empire. That would mean there is something like a billion slaves today. Edit: Wikipedia says there are estimated 12-27 millions slaves today, which is a lot of people, but certainly not as high a percentage of the worlds population.

I agree with the grandparent, but I'm skeptical of the numbers quoted, too. Slavery, along with child and sex trafficking, is certainly still a huge problem, but because it happens in the shadows, most people don't know about it.