The new science of meditation • Hacker News Board

Re: The new science of meditation

#261

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:26 AM UTC

pegasus wrote: post #91

choxi wrote: post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

There are scientists who are weighing these questions. For example, see Thomas Metzinger's latest research on these kind of states presented here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f4ykI9har8 (and in the followup video) Another good resource is the book "Zen and the Brain". And this interview with Daniel Ingram mentions some fascinating research on his own capacities developed in meditation: https://www.youtube.com/wa…

[deleted]

Re: The new science of meditation

#262

Post by Tagbert » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:33 AM UTC

uwagar wrote: post #260

dorchadas wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly the Tao of Pooh does not outline the basic tenets of Daoism. As van Norden says in the chapter on the Daodejing in his Introduction to Classical Chinese Philosophy : > The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff ... is a charming work that has attained a wide readership. There is nothing wrong with enjoying it for itself. But it reveals much more about how the Daodejing as been appropriated to illustrate Western Romantici…

[flagged]

That is just an example of different conventions of romanizations of Chinese characters. Both should be pronounced with “d”.

Re: The new science of meditation

#263

Post by hirvi74 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:35 AM UTC

Anyone have any recommendations for those of us without attention spans?

I've always wanted to mediate, but after a few attempts, I have started to question if it's more possible for some to partake in than others.

Re: The new science of meditation

#264

Post by crazygringo » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:37 AM UTC

downsplat wrote: post #226

cracoucax wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychotherapy works on the "self": your problems, your history. One of the aims of mediation is to gradually understand that this self is really an illusion, hence there are in fact no problems and no history. Past does not really define who you are, and problems are only problems if you think reality should be different that what it currently is the moment you experience it (which is of course totally impossible. Wh…

> One of the aims of mediation is to gradually understand that this self is really an illusion Yes this is a standard Buddhist (and not even exclusively Buddhist) point, and I'd say it's basically correct, but the problem is that it can, and has been understood in dozens of ways. Some more profound than others, and plenty contradicting one another. Let me give a fairly psychological interpretation. One of our major c…

That seems like a fantastic explanation -- can I ask a couple of questions, since you seem to be able to explain so well?

Because I've never found much success with meditation, but the split between present-experience and self-representation has always seemed... well, easy to me. This idea of them being "fused" is only something I discovered in discussions around meditation. But then that makes me wonder if I misunderstand it.

Conceptually, I can understand the present-experience meditation aims at as simply experiencing the senses. Which I'll do sometimes, especially outside in nature. It's nice. I've never had any trouble quieting down my thoughts, as long as I'm not in an immediately stressful situation.

But it's also never "changed" me in any way. It doesn't make me feel like there's "more to me", nor does it feel like it's some kind of desperately needed respite from my self-representation. I rather like the challenges of everyday life. Even if they're not "so important", it gives me meaning and purpose in a way that, well, I can't find any comparable meaning or purpose in focusing solely on present-experience.

So I guess my question is, am I missing some aspect of meditation? Am I misunderstanding something here? Because what I've been struggling to understand is why letting go of self-representation is seen as good or a goal. You're left with your sensory experience, but I don't understand what's meant to be so profound about that. It's never led me to any ethical realizations the way reading moral philosophy has, nor has it led me to any therapeutic realizations the way psychotherapy has -- nor do I really understand the mechanism by which it could. But I feel like I might be missing a piece of the puzzle?

Re: The new science of meditation

#265

Post by sharms » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:40 AM UTC

hirvi74 wrote: post #263

Anyone have any recommendations for those of us without attention spans? I've always wanted to mediate, but after a few attempts, I have started to question if it's more possible for some to partake in than others.

This might not help and might sound new age / abstract: meditation is not continuous focus, but is about choosing to focus, letting thoughts pass, and when you recognize you are distracted to consciously let the distracting thought go, and return to focusing on what you intended to.

Re: The new science of meditation

#266

Post by whtrbt » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:40 AM UTC

hirvi74 wrote: post #263

Anyone have any recommendations for those of us without attention spans? I've always wanted to mediate, but after a few attempts, I have started to question if it's more possible for some to partake in than others.

You're going to be battling with your attention a lot in the beginning. I think just making a habit of it regardless and putting in the time is necessary.

You could always go on a retreat — you'll have very limited options for distractions. It might sound like an extreme thing to do, and maybe it is, but I did it without much prior practice and got a lot out of it.

Re: The new science of meditation

#267

Post by crazygringo » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:44 AM UTC

johndhi wrote: post #61

choxi wrote: post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

(Been meditating for about 15 years). I don't think the things you're describing are particularly 'superhuman.' I definitely can achieve (if that's the right word -- it's almost certainly not -- how about 'experience') psychedelic states. Everything is kind of a psychedelic state if you look at it the right way. What is your personal experience with psychedelics? I wonder if you maybe haven't done them much you might…

> Everything is kind of a psychedelic state if you look at it the right way.

But if everything is psychadelic then nothing is.

How do you describe the psychadelic states you achieve as being different from non-psychadelic states?

Re: The new science of meditation

#268

Post by NoZebra120vClip » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:48 AM UTC

When I was a homeless man, I used to go ride the bus to the end of the line, just hanging out in the seat, just waiting for it to stop and turn around, just trying to stay warm/cool.

I used to walk around at night, walk and walk, because there were precious few places to sit down and rest, and I didn't want to arouse suspicion for loitering or trespassing, so I'd just walk until I was too tired.

I used to hang out in restaurants, either on my own dime or with a charity voucher, and I'd swill coffee, and read/write or something, not with any goal in mind, just passing the time through the night, because I was homeless, unemployed, and constantly at loose ends.

And this, in a nutshell, is what you get with meditation when you divorce it from an authentic spiritual tradition.

Re: The new science of meditation

#269

Post by crazygringo » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:48 AM UTC

oatmeal1 wrote: post #115

crazygringo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of the thousands of causes of stress in modern life can't be changed by an individual The counterpoint is essentially that if people engaged in social outward-looking collective action , as opposed to solitary inward-looking meditation, then you can change the world -- as has been demonstrated countless times. You certainly can unelect politicians in the next election. Environmental movements have made giganti…

Where do people get the energy to take outward collective action if they are bogged down by stress and frivolous thoughts? I see meditation and/or psychedelics as the only way to get people to do pro-societal things, above individualistic things that are not thoughtful uses of time.

Well, experience with political organization makes clear that it's motivated by anger at injustice. Which is why consciousness-raising has historically been such a part of starting movements, to make people aware of the injustices, to stimulate the anger that motivates political action.

If you're angry and want to change the world, stress and frivolous thoughts aren't going to interfere. If anything, your focus on the cause isn't going to leave room for as many frivolous thoughts.

Re: The new science of meditation

#270

Post by nabla9 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:50 AM UTC

hirvi74 wrote: post #263

Anyone have any recommendations for those of us without attention spans? I've always wanted to mediate, but after a few attempts, I have started to question if it's more possible for some to partake in than others.

I have done zazen over 20 years and know many people who have ADHD and do it a lot. You need less than a second attention span. What you need is the ability to bring mind back endlessly. It's like learning to juggle, picking up juggling pins from the ground again and again.

"The faculty of voluntarily bringing back a wandering attention, over and over again, is the very root of judgment, character and will." – William James