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The new science of meditation

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Re: The new science of meditation

#221

I've practiced mindfulness and meditation for many years until I found "The Tao of Pooh", which, if you're not familiar, outlines the basic tenets of taoism. It has completely changed me and made me feel whole for the first time in my life, and I don't have to practice anything to achieve it. Early on in my life I was drawn in by proverbs and other pieces of wisdom, in an attempt to fill in the gaps of what I thought…

Sadly the Tao of Pooh does not outline the basic tenets of Daoism. As van Norden says in the chapter on the Daodejing in his Introduction to Classical Chinese Philosophy : > The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff ... is a charming work that has attained a wide readership. There is nothing wrong with enjoying it for itself. But it reveals much more about how the Daodejing as been appropriated to illustrate Western Romantici…

What would you recommend as an introduction to Daoism, even if academic?

I am not an expert on the subject but IMO Taoism has a very similar phenomenon to Buddhism (and indeed all religions or popular philosophies really) in that the “classical”, original, core teachings are pretty different from the organized later movements under the same name. So the context - philosophical, historical, sociological, spiritual - in which you approach the subject and whether you’re doing so on the basis of the original thing or its more organized movements might make it so people interested in it under different contexts both think the other is ignorant or incorrect.

I haven’t read the Tao of Pooh myself but I want to point this out because I think it’s possible to understand Taoism (the classical philosophy) and concepts like Wu-wei without necessarily knowing anything about Neidan and or “Taoist Magic”

Re: The new science of meditation

#222
I think that there needs to be a separation of meditation's tangible benefits from both the religious associations, such as seeking nirvana or psychedelic experiences, and the social & financial ones stated in this article that either view meditation as a genuine secret superpower or are see it as a backdrop to take advantage of people simply trying to find mental peace.

My belief is that the idea Kabat-Zinn had, which is paraphrased in the article, is good. "Pay attention to the present moment, on purpose, without judgment" - stop, take some time to reflect on your feelings, process them. Maybe just take some time and not "think", where you give yourself some away time from the world. The anecdata from countless people seems to vaguely support the notion that this view on meditation works; I wouldn't call it concrete by any means, but it's as solid of a scientific start as one can get with something like meditation.

Software developers and those adjacent love to tout acronyms like "Keep It Simple, Stupid", why does the buck stop at software? The further one gets into the article, the more outlandish things get: electronic stimulation, microdosing various drugs (mentioned a lot on HN, which I've always found disturbing), cranial ultrasounds, even the stock photo of the lady meditating with a VR headset?

At the end of the piece, Laukkonen provides the following rhetorical question: "[W]hat is liberating about chasing different states of consciousness, and not enjoying the one that you have?" I think a lot of the comments here and the research presented towards the end of the article are in too deep in either side and are unable to see the forest for the trees.

Re: The new science of meditation

#223
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP and it's been a long time since I've read the Tao of Pooh, but from what I recall it's alright, but it really doesn't cover much of the real meat of Taoism. Much like Alan Watts, it provides an interesting philosophy, possibly even a helpful one, but it's not Daoism. Like watching an American re-make of a foreign movie :) I'd be a bit wary of older translations[0] and try to get a reputable new one if you can.…

I quite liked Thomas Merton's translations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Thomas Merton! He was a truly wise man and I have several of his books (highly recommend Zen and the Birds of Appetite and The Wisdom of the Desert!) and enjoy his "The Way of Chuang Tzu ". But Merton wasn't a translator and was instead arranging others translations, as well as interpreting passages in his own way. So while I'd certainly recommend his books I wanted to stay within the bounds of direct translations.

Re: The new science of meditation

#224
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP and it's been a long time since I've read the Tao of Pooh, but from what I recall it's alright, but it really doesn't cover much of the real meat of Taoism. Much like Alan Watts, it provides an interesting philosophy, possibly even a helpful one, but it's not Daoism. Like watching an American re-make of a foreign movie :) I'd be a bit wary of older translations[0] and try to get a reputable new one if you can.…

I like the movie metaphor, some turn out to be very different from the original and I don't always like that. This seems like a great list you've compiled, thank you. The deeper dives you've recommended sound very interesting too. I think I'll bookmark this

You're welcome! I realized I'd be remiss in not mentioning David Hinton as well: he's an American poet who's also a professional Chinese translator and has produced many excellent translations[0] over the years. He has a very distinct translation style were he translates as much of it as directly as possible (which is already difficult going from Ancient Chinese to Modern Chinese, let alone English) and really helps you get how different the thought really is while still keeping the originals poetic quality.

[0] I recommend his translations of the inner Chuang Tzu chapters and the I-Ching, as well as his book China Root.

Re: The new science of meditation

#225
One of the ways I hate wasting my time is wishing we would stop using a word that has been overloaded into uselessness as if it conveyed some kind of actual meaning by itself.

The article touches vaguely upon it, but “meditation” covers so many different things, many of which are completely incompatible with each other, it’s a guarantee that discussing “meditation” leads to people thinking they are talking about something which they are not in fact talking about.

Anyway.

Re: The new science of meditation

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give an example of beliefs/ideas you've let go of, or discovered can't be known to be true? I've been trying to understand the pros/cons of psychotherapy vs meditation, as both of them seem to involve letting go of false beliefs. But while there are a lot of examples of this in psychotherapy and the mechanisms are well-documented, it's hard to find first-person accounts regarding meditation that aren't just…

Psychotherapy works on the "self": your problems, your history. One of the aims of mediation is to gradually understand that this self is really an illusion, hence there are in fact no problems and no history. Past does not really define who you are, and problems are only problems if you think reality should be different that what it currently is the moment you experience it (which is of course totally impossible. Wh…

> One of the aims of mediation is to gradually understand that this self is really an illusion

Yes this is a standard Buddhist (and not even exclusively Buddhist) point, and I'd say it's basically correct, but the problem is that it can, and has been understood in dozens of ways. Some more profound than others, and plenty contradicting one another.

Let me give a fairly psychological interpretation. One of our major cognitive functions is to create and maintain an automatic, pre-verbal map of the world, at the center of which stands a mapped entity labeled "ME". Let's call it the "self-representation". This is in itself fine and dandy, and quite useful; it gives us a sense of being an integrated organism through time, and lets us say things like "yesterday I went swimming". More troublingly, it's also the subject of our self-esteem, and of most of our hopes and worries.

The map, with our self-representation in the center, is not the only thing in our awareness - we're also able to attend to stimula and feel our emotions in the here and now. The problem, and the only problem as far as radical Buddhism is concerned, is that our sense of being is most of the time entirely fused with this self-representation. It becomes the entirely of who I am to myself. (Hence Ramana Maharshi's super direct path: inquire within "who am I").

What meditation does, by slowing down the whole mechanism, is to allow us to feel that there is more to me, here and now, than this running self-representation. By insistently putting our attention away from it, we temporally and partially unfuse from the self-representation. We get little breaks from it, where it either it mostly just stops for a while, or it becomes something I see happening, rather than something I am. And if I can see it happening, I can also train myself to not give it so much importance.

The result is a much vaster inner perspective, and a sense of deeper presence - for a few moments at least. But, usually, the moment the meditator notices these changes happening, the most automatic reaction is for the self-representation to rise back up as the one who wants to own that. HEY, INTERESTING STUFF IS HAPPENING TO ME!!! And there you go go crashing again into stuffy ordinary consciousness.

Hence the usual advice you will hear from good meditation teachers: getting experiences if often easy, but not running after them can take years and years of practice.

Re: The new science of meditation

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but it happened to me. Started meditation to deal with anxiety and the introspection that came with it, ended up with me on the verge of a complete breakdown. I started off doing Sam Harris and then progressed to doing an hour or more each day. I had some moments of insight and then hit some dark night of the soul which wrecked me, I was close to admitting myself to hospital for psychological help. What fixed…

I feel like you did the wrong sort of meditation for anxiety. Mindfulness and breathing where you see the thought come and let it go is preferred for anxiety sufferers. You should not be following your anxious thoughts. I could see how it would affect you negatively if you tried to follow all your anxious thoughts and delve into their "meaning". The goal for some with high anxiety ought to be lessening its meaning. Y…

> Mindfulness and breathing where you see the thought come and let it go is preferred for anxiety sufferers

That was exactly the approach I was doing.

> If you tried to follow all your anxious thoughts and delve into their "meaning"

That is the opposite of meditation, I've never heard of that being described anywhere as meditation, that sounds like daily rumination / churn.

Re: The new science of meditation

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems you have a fairly narrow view of what constitutes a religion. Christian fundamentalism is particularly dogmatic and is one negative manifestation of religion which happens to be present in the West. From the book "God is Not One" by Stephen Prothero: "Philosopher of religion Ninian Smart has referred to these [shared religious] tendencies as the seven “dimensions” of religion: the ritual, narrative, experien…

> It seems you have a fairly narrow view of what constitutes a religion. Christian fundamentalism is particularly dogmatic and is one negative manifestation of religion which happens to be present in the West. The Christian dogmatic variety and its offshoots also happens to be quite popular. I understand the broader religious context after investing significant time and effort into trying to understand the phenomena…

Fair enough. Meditation and even prayer certainly don't need to be associated with religion. Funnily enough, meditation is explicitly mentioned in the Bible, so it's confusing why more Christians choose to solely focus on prayer. If meditation is about understanding yourself, and prayer is about causing effect in the world, meditation seems the best way to operationalize Jesus' words about removing the plank from your own eye before the speck in your neighbor's.

It seems to me that both prayer and meditation are related to the notion of a Higher Power. Whether that power ranges from rebalancing the autonomic nervous system to letting God take charge, meditation and prayer are fundamentally about a conscious connection to the Unseen.

Re: The new science of meditation

#230
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quite liked Thomas Merton's translations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Thomas Merton! He was a truly wise man and I have several of his books (highly recommend Zen and the Birds of Appetite and The Wisdom of the Desert!) and enjoy his "The Way of Chuang Tzu ". But Merton wasn't a translator and was instead arranging others translations, as well as interpreting passages in his own way. So while I'd certainly recommend his books I wanted to stay within…

Fair comment, and I appreciate you clarifying, I'll check out the translation you mentioned :)
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