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The new science of meditation

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Re: The new science of meditation

#111

Post by colechristensen »

jules22 wrote: post #56

Whenever someone talks enthusiastically about meditation, I remind myself that all the popular meditation gurus I see on Youtube talk nonsense, pseudoscience, lack common sense and use manipulative psychological tricks. None of them admit any errors and ironically are quite conceited for those who claim to have conquered ego. I am sure meditative states must feel nice. But all I see beyond that are cults and none of…

What's popular on YouTube and what's good are very often not the same. You're seeing what YouTube is trying to optimize for... it's not surprising that it's manipulative, exaggerating, populist nonsense. YouTube could do this for literally any topic. The YT algorithm's take on the best meditation advice doesn't need to define what meditation is to you. Topics which should be "boring" get this treatment on social media. Find your information elsewhere or figure out how to filter and ignore the nonsense.

Re: The new science of meditation

#112

Post by Jimpulse »

thenerdhead wrote: post #62
gdubs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of different practices, though in a lot of schools that have practiced meditation for centuries, "Mindfulness" style meditation – what's largely practiced in the west – is just one aspect. The Dalai Lama, for instance, discuss at length in his books deeper phases of meditation that focus on things like "emptiness" [1] or compassion, loving-kindness, etc. Someone who's more knowledgable can correct me if…

Ah I see. So the subject/practice of your meditation is what is considered advanced. i.e. metta, vipassana, samatha, etc. I read the entire article and it hardly spoke about what is considered "advanced" from the monasteries.

There are "attainments" or maps. A lot of teachers don't communicate them since it can be a bit of a trap, since striving to reach an attainments can prevent you from reaching it.

More contemporary dharma teachers have been willing to go into it. The jhanas is one such map.

As an intermediary step simply being able to stay with your breath for an hour while still being aware/not falling asleep is a good goal.

Re: The new science of meditation

#113

Post by [deleted] »

jules22 wrote: post #56

Whenever someone talks enthusiastically about meditation, I remind myself that all the popular meditation gurus I see on Youtube talk nonsense, pseudoscience, lack common sense and use manipulative psychological tricks. None of them admit any errors and ironically are quite conceited for those who claim to have conquered ego. I am sure meditative states must feel nice. But all I see beyond that are cults and none of…

[deleted]

Re: The new science of meditation

#114

Post by iamatworknow »

johndhi wrote: post #99
iamatworknow wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did the same as a kid. Like if I was in a classroom with noisy classmates ("study hall") I'd shut my eyes and actively try to not hear them and embrace the nothingness "around" the voices. Kinda interesting that I have distinct memories of doing this _years_ before I was ever exposed to "meditation".

IMO a lot of stuff humans have 'invented' (like meditation) are really just sort of tied to our nature as animals. I think meditation is something we're all (most?) inclined to try in some way, but then some specific geeks studied it really hard for thousands of years and turned it into what it is.

Yeah, that totally makes sense to me.

Re: The new science of meditation

#115

Post by oatmeal1 »

crazygringo wrote: post #42
lcuff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't help but feel the recent societal interest in meditation and psychedelics is wrongheaded in that it's treating a symptom rather than a cause. I agree, but the question emerges "what is treatable?" Many of the thousands of causes of stress in modern life can't be changed by an individual: I can't unelect politicians I disagree with, clean up the air where I live, or make the roads I travel significantly less…

> Many of the thousands of causes of stress in modern life can't be changed by an individual The counterpoint is essentially that if people engaged in social outward-looking collective action , as opposed to solitary inward-looking meditation, then you can change the world -- as has been demonstrated countless times. You certainly can unelect politicians in the next election. Environmental movements have made giganti…

Where do people get the energy to take outward collective action if they are bogged down by stress and frivolous thoughts? I see meditation and/or psychedelics as the only way to get people to do pro-societal things, above individualistic things that are not thoughtful uses of time.

Re: The new science of meditation

#116

Post by waterheater »

DrThunder wrote: post #90
waterheater wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. How many Westerners are trying to meditate without a conscious belief in a Higher Power, an Infinite Creator, God, or such? I wonder if there may be negative spiritual effects by employing meditation without seeking closeness with divinity.

Eh, my guess is it just isn't quite as effective. Belief in a higher power makes things a lot easier to accept and meditation in many aspects is the practice of accepting emotions and thoughts. I would also say prayer like you see in Abrahamic religions is its own type of meditation. You also enter a sort of meditative state in sports where you kind of feel in the moment and "in the flow" where there's not God involv…

>Eh, my guess is it just isn't quite as effective.

I suppose that would be less guess and more...belief. :)

Meditation is not just about accepting emotions and thoughts; you can get such by talking with a close friend or visiting a mental health counselor. Many people claim to receive new insight or guidance amidst the mental stillness. Two common explanations is that it's either God or your Higher Self sending a message.

Prayer is absolutely a form of meditation, arguably a more advanced form. If meditation fosters observation of self and others, prayer takes that observation and combines it with will to cause action.

What you're ultimately getting at is the difference between "going through the motions" and proper meditation and prayer. Most spiritual systems discuss a "right" way to meditate or pray which focuses less on the external actions and more on your internal desire.

Re: The new science of meditation

#117

Post by Jimpulse »

choxi wrote: post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

The jhanas were describes in the suttas. You can verify it yourself. Leigh Brasington has a lot of resources making them more accessible, https://www.lionsroar.com/entering-the-jhanas/.

I would agree that the jhanas are hallucinations and initially not subtle whatsoever. By repeated exploration of the jhanas you learn that the states are wholly dependent on many things not under your control. Application of these states in real life is a whole different animal compared to simply being able to access them as well.

* Edit: If you do decide to dive in, the first jhana can be very disorienting. It's definitely a good idea seek help in integrating the experience. Feel free to message me, and I can help or at least point you in the right direction!

Re: The new science of meditation

#118

Post by nprateem »

borg16 wrote: post #14
mohave529 wrote: post #5

"Along a less-traveled route, meditation remains what it long was: a deeply transformative pursuit, a devoted metamorphosis of the mind toward increasingly enlightened states." This pretty much lines up with what meditation has done for me. However, the pursuit of "states" can be a trap in of itself. As my practice has gotten deeper, I've started to reframe meditation for myself as the process of unrelenting inquiry…

can you provide some resources to understand this "advanced" meditation? my attempts with calm/headspace etc always stop at the same theme of 'concentrate on breathing, distractions are fine'. I wanted to understand what is out there, especially outside of these apps and folks who pursue meditation seriously.

My favourite is Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm.

Re: The new science of meditation

#120

Post by oatmeal1 »

2bitencryption wrote: post #46

A few years ago I tried the very first Headspace meditation courses, back when Headspace was pretty new. It was great! I loved it. I really felt like the narrator was knowledgeable and had something to teach me. His explanations for the process actually made sense, and weren't woo-woo mumbo jumbo. Perhaps it is all placebo effect, but even if so, the effect worked for me perfectly. The problem is, as the industry exp…

I use the Headspace guided meditation (30 mins) 2-3 times every day. Did that not work for you? It's amazing how hard they make it just to find the basic guided meditation. Not pushing anything spiritual or ways of thinking the guide prefers. Just experiencing the present.
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