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Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

nejm.org

11–20 of 36 posts

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#11
If you're interested in how our ability to detect cancers (and other diseases like diabetes and osteoporosis) has surged ahead of our ability to know when treatment is effective, I highly recommend Overdiagnosed by Welch, Schwartz, and Woloshin.

Right now medical science seems to be at an uncomfortable phase with certain diseases where we can't be sure our treatments will have a greater benefit than the cost of the treatments— and not just in terms of price, but at the expense of our health itself.

http://www.amazon.com/Overdiagnosed-Making-People-Pursuit-He...

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#13

Seems like these results could be unfortunately easily misrepresented or misunderstood by people.

Unfortunately, you're right about prostate cancer screening in general. It's hard to interpret correctly no matter what way you look at it.

Not only could these results lead to people who need to be screened skipping a doctor's appointment, but also our ability to diagnose prostate cancer has exceeded our ability to know when it's sensible to treat it.

Prostate cancer is usually treated by removing the entire prostate, which causes years of impotency and incontinence, without mentioning medical bills. All in all, that would be a small price to pay for your life, but we're inconvenienced by the fact that prostate cancer doesn't usually kill people. Most men will die of other causes long before prostate cancer gets them. For example, while over 80% of men between 70 and 79 have prostate cancer, only 3% will die from it. That means a lot of potential for unnecessary disruptive surgeries and lost health no matter how you look at it.

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#15

It looks like this is the 2 year follow up to a previous study. "Analyses after 2 additional years of follow-up consolidated our previous finding that PSA-based screening significantly reduced mortality from prostate cancer but did not affect all-cause mortality. " So, if I follow this correctly, your odds of dying from prostate cancer are still definitely lowered by screening, but your odds of dying overall are not.…

It probably just means prostate cancer represents a tiny portion of mortality, so even a significant difference appears tiny and within the bounds of error. Remember, the finding is not "no difference" but "failed to find a difference". Statistics does not ever prove "no difference".

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#16

Thank you for phrasing this in terms of all-cause mortality. If only every academic study (and submission) used this as a metric, the world would be a vastly better place.

I doubt it. If you relied on all-cause mortality for every study, you'd never get out of phase I trials.

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#18

To clarify the Hacker News title, the article is talking specifically about prostate-specific antigen (PSA) screening, which is already known to be of uncertain medical value except in some very specific situations. As the discoverer of PSA said, "I never dreamed that my discovery four decades ago would lead to such a profit-driven public health disaster. The medical community must confront reality and stop the inapp…

From the link you posted:

"last month, the American Cancer Society urged more caution in using the test"

It's a very sad state of affairs when a test that unambiguously offers some statistical utility (speaking as a Bayesian, any test is useful if we do the right things with the results, this is quite literally a provable theorem of decision theory) is potentially problematic because we aren't properly evaluating what to do when we get the results. I can't blame patients here, they're not the experts; it's doctors (and perhaps more fairly, the entire medical research industry) that need to wise the fuck up and realize that they're acting as statistical dilettantes in a field where they're putting patients lives at risk because they don't understand math very well.

Yes, even a test that only detects ~3% of cancers should be useful; but this requires that doctors completely understand what it means both to see a positive and a negative result, and don't overreact when they see either one.

If this was a matter of just weighing the costs of having tests done versus the benefits of getting the results, it would be one thing. But it's not. People actually end up suffering and spending great amounts of money just because they did "the right thing" and had tests run, and then listened to the doctors' advice afterwards.

Once more with feeling: after discounting for the cost of the test, there is no test that should be of negative value for a rational agent to take. The results should always be used in a way that, in general, increases the welfare of the people taking the test.

If this is not the case in medicine, then they're doing something seriously wrong mathematically speaking, and this is a very bad thing that should be a high priority to fix.

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#19

To clarify the Hacker News title, the article is talking specifically about prostate-specific antigen (PSA) screening, which is already known to be of uncertain medical value except in some very specific situations. As the discoverer of PSA said, "I never dreamed that my discovery four decades ago would lead to such a profit-driven public health disaster. The medical community must confront reality and stop the inapp…

From the link you posted: "last month, the American Cancer Society urged more caution in using the test" It's a very sad state of affairs when a test that unambiguously offers some statistical utility (speaking as a Bayesian, any test is useful if we do the right things with the results, this is quite literally a provable theorem of decision theory) is potentially problematic because we aren't properly evaluating wha…

Unless taking the test has a cost in and of itself -- such as if it requires surgery, so that the risk of something going wrong during testing might outweigh the information gained if the condition being tested for is rare.

Re: Study of 160k men finds no all-cause mortality benefit from prostate screening

#20

It looks like this is the 2 year follow up to a previous study. "Analyses after 2 additional years of follow-up consolidated our previous finding that PSA-based screening significantly reduced mortality from prostate cancer but did not affect all-cause mortality. " So, if I follow this correctly, your odds of dying from prostate cancer are still definitely lowered by screening, but your odds of dying overall are not.…

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the way I understand it. One of the major problems with PSA-based screening is false-positives. Getting a false-positive result for cancer could certainly increase your risk of an early death. Cancer treatments put a lot of stress on you physically, and the diagnoses could also cause a lot of mental/emotional stress. Stress of either kind reduces life expectancy.

False positive rates should be understood by the doctors that recommend treatments, though. A doctor should be able to accurately tell a patient what the chance is that they suffer from a disease based on a positive result from a test.

Unfortunately, doctors tend to be terribly bad at this - they are generally quite inept at incorporating prior probabilities into the estimates, and assume that (for instance) if a test has only a 1% false positive rate, then that means a positive result means it's 99% certain that you have whatever it's testing for.

If it's not immediately obvious why that's an idiotically dangerous assessment, then you need to think a bit about a rare disease that only shows up in 1 out of a million people, and then consider the 10,000 people that will test positive for it at a false positive rate of 1%. Don't worry, most doctors don't get this right at first, either, and they will happily suggest to all 10,000 of those people that they seek aggressive, even life-threatening treatment...the difference, of course, is that they're goddamn doctors, entrusted with keeping people alive, and they really ought to know better, whereas you're just some person on the Internet.

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