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Unix is both a technology and an idea

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Re: Unix is both a technology and an idea

#11
Unix was a couple of guys in an attic. Hack was one guy. Unix was collaborative, personally collaborative between some extraordinary intelligent people. If you read Kernighan's memoir, it talks about the second version problem. Unix solved a problem. GNU solved a problem. Linux solved a problem, and WSL2 solved a problem. Using a hammer to rid your house of ants is a solution, that does not fit the problem. I do not consider a hammer harmful in itself, if its used to drive nails. Everything needs a tersely named tool is outdated, useful for trouble shooting but outdated UX/UI. We need to continue with our tools, and develop them further, but not with extraneous bells and whistles. ( This bit of wisdom came from a 5th grader, who now has a degree in Political Economics, and I do not understand a single thing he says. ) Read Kernighan's memoir.

Re: Unix is both a technology and an idea

#12
Those that keep trying to make a point of Android being UNIX, never really shipped anything on the Play Store.

Yes, it uses the Linux kernel, and several components born on the Linux world and that is about it.

Only Google and OEM partners get to see that layer, and those that root their devices.

Nothing on the Android userspace, the Java and Kotlin frameworks, or the NDK official APIs have anything to do with Linux in any kind, form and fashion.

As for putting UNIX in a pedestal, most of the so called culture, is mostly circled around nerd circles, hardly ever noticed in big iron commercial UNIXes, and now that most of them faded away, gets passed by as a kind of old culture myth told during cold nights around the fire.

As for the technology, the UNIX haters book exists for a reason, had AT&T been allowed to sell UNIX from the get go, and most likely it wouldn't have picked up steam on the market.

Being source tapes available for symbolic prices, when compared with the real cost of a commercial OS on the 1970's, is of course a different matter.

I find great that at least the mobile OSes, and cloud infrastructure nowadays focus on other stacks, instead of being yet another UNIX clone, no need for OS monoculture stuck in the past.

Signed, a recovered UNIX zealot.

Re: Unix is both a technology and an idea

#13
post #3

Android is a great NEGATIVE example of the Unix philosophy! The code is based on the Linux kernel, which might make you think it's Unix, but isn't Unix [1] An OS is where 3 things meet: code, data, and people. AKA apps, files, and users. AKA CPU, storage, and networking when viewed from hardware (in the old days, you'd have terminals and serial ports, not Internet) I'd argue that (if you take away the historical "hai…

> So Android is more like a "monoglot" operating system on top of Unix. It's just using Linux as a bunch of device drivers basically

Not even that since Project Treble.

From Project Treble point of view, Linux kernel is a microkernel, and the only in-kernel drivers are legacy drivers, all modern drivers should run on their own userspace process (written in C++ or Java), and use Android IPC to talk to the kernel.

Android has zero to do with UNIX philosophy, they could ship a version using Zirkon instead of Linux kernel and nothing in userspace would notice, unless they are trying to use private APIs, or are OEM partners.

Re: Unix is both a technology and an idea

#14

Unix was a couple of guys in an attic. Hack was one guy. Unix was collaborative, personally collaborative between some extraordinary intelligent people. If you read Kernighan's memoir, it talks about the second version problem. Unix solved a problem. GNU solved a problem. Linux solved a problem, and WSL2 solved a problem. Using a hammer to rid your house of ants is a solution, that does not fit the problem. I do not…

What's often lost in a simple review of the history is that in modern times certain elements of the Unix philosophy [1] have become more important than ever. In fact as technology becomes more pervasive I would argue that the ideas it encapsulates are no longer only relevant to computer architecture, they're now relevant to the survival of a free and open society. This isn't just about how to build the best widget anymore (though I still think the Unix philosophy is a great contender for that).

In particular I'm referring to the principles of composability and universal interfaces. These principles make the Unix philosophy inherently democratizing - when you apply it you're producing something that's intended to interoperate with other agents in a diverse ecosystem beyond your control. This is in stark contrast to the monoliths that tend to emerge from proprietary software development where the socioeconomic goals are to control everything strictly and limit interoperability because there's commercial value in having a "moat" or a "walled garden" which people can't escape.

As computers become interwoven with our lives and our society the general purpose computer has become a tool like the printing press. The printing press was a precursor for democracy as we know it because it enabled the dissemination of information on a scale that was previously impossible.

What sort of social progress we might ultimately achieve through the general purpose computer is yet to be fully determined. But in the modern era we have many examples of what the competing philosophy of proprietary monoliths looks like - it's a hellscape where more your time and attention are harnessed by the monolith's owner, to serve his own ends, even at the detriment of your health and well-being [2].

Facebook and Instagram wouldn't be killing our children if they had been designed around the Unix principles of composability and a universal interface. How many people have lamented their inability to take their data, content and relationships away from Meta's silo? It's a constant refrain in our industry that people wish they could get away from a service that started out great and gradually "enshittified" - had these services been designed with the Unix philosophy in mind, it would be possible.

Either way, the Unix philosophy is now just as much about your human freedom and well-being, as it is about whether your code works well.

Stallman of course saw this coming decades ago and predicted with disturbing prescience - that "either the user would control the program, or the program would control the user."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

[2] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-ill...

Re: Unix is both a technology and an idea

#15
post #12

Those that keep trying to make a point of Android being UNIX, never really shipped anything on the Play Store. Yes, it uses the Linux kernel, and several components born on the Linux world and that is about it. Only Google and OEM partners get to see that layer, and those that root their devices. Nothing on the Android userspace, the Java and Kotlin frameworks, or the NDK official APIs have anything to do with Linux…

iOS is also a UNIX btw ;)

Re: Unix is both a technology and an idea

#16
post #12

Those that keep trying to make a point of Android being UNIX, never really shipped anything on the Play Store. Yes, it uses the Linux kernel, and several components born on the Linux world and that is about it. Only Google and OEM partners get to see that layer, and those that root their devices. Nothing on the Android userspace, the Java and Kotlin frameworks, or the NDK official APIs have anything to do with Linux…

Well you can ssh to an Android phone through the USB developer tools, and you get a bunch of Unix commands like ls, df, etc.

Anyway what's wrong about Unix is that it assumes that users need to be protected from each other (good) but installed binaries can be somehow trusted (bad). We're in the internet age now where we download so many executable code that we need better sandboxing, as part of the OS.

Re: Unix is both a technology and an idea

#17
post #12

Those that keep trying to make a point of Android being UNIX, never really shipped anything on the Play Store. Yes, it uses the Linux kernel, and several components born on the Linux world and that is about it. Only Google and OEM partners get to see that layer, and those that root their devices. Nothing on the Android userspace, the Java and Kotlin frameworks, or the NDK official APIs have anything to do with Linux…

iOS is also a UNIX btw ;)

Now try to ship an app using only UNIX apis.

Re: Unix is both a technology and an idea

#18
post #16
post #12

Those that keep trying to make a point of Android being UNIX, never really shipped anything on the Play Store. Yes, it uses the Linux kernel, and several components born on the Linux world and that is about it. Only Google and OEM partners get to see that layer, and those that root their devices. Nothing on the Android userspace, the Java and Kotlin frameworks, or the NDK official APIs have anything to do with Linux…

Well you can ssh to an Android phone through the USB developer tools, and you get a bunch of Unix commands like ls, df, etc. Anyway what's wrong about Unix is that it assumes that users need to be protected from each other (good) but installed binaries can be somehow trusted (bad). We're in the internet age now where we download so many executable code that we need better sandboxing, as part of the OS.

After enabling the developer mode, and using tools regular users never get to see.

Re: Unix is both a technology and an idea

#19
post #12

Those that keep trying to make a point of Android being UNIX, never really shipped anything on the Play Store. Yes, it uses the Linux kernel, and several components born on the Linux world and that is about it. Only Google and OEM partners get to see that layer, and those that root their devices. Nothing on the Android userspace, the Java and Kotlin frameworks, or the NDK official APIs have anything to do with Linux…

> and cloud infrastructure nowadays focus on other stacks, instead of being yet another UNIX clone

could you elaborate? I was under the impression, that most clouds heavily rely on unix, both for host and guest systems (and containers)

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