19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv • Hacker News Board

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#171

Post by gambling8nt » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:16 PM UTC

run4yourlives wrote: post #167

gambling8nt wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone hangs themselves from the tree in my front yard, is there an element of fault with me for supplying the tree? Any effort to shift blame onto j.tv for this is little more than an over-reaction caused by a state of grief...while it is certainly understandable, it is equally indefensible.

Well, if you sit and watch them tying the noose and climb the tree, there is (or certainly can be argued) an element of fault that yes.

But we're not talking about some tiny community where everyone can be watching for this sort of thing from everyone else. What we're talking about is approximately the moral equivalent of blaming the mayor of New York for someone hanging themselves in Central Park.

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#172

Post by run4yourlives » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:26 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #133

run4yourlives wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which doesn't make it any less disrespectful.

So what? Disrespect is at the heart of much great humour.

Feel free to crack jokes at the next funeral you attend then. I'm sure the other attendees will be highly amused.

More to the heart of much great humour is timing.

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#173

Post by run4yourlives » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:31 PM UTC

gambling8nt wrote: post #171

run4yourlives wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you sit and watch them tying the noose and climb the tree, there is (or certainly can be argued) an element of fault that yes.

But we're not talking about some tiny community where everyone can be watching for this sort of thing from everyone else. What we're talking about is approximately the moral equivalent of blaming the mayor of New York for someone hanging themselves in Central Park.

But we're not talking about some tiny community where everyone can be watching for this sort of thing from everyone else.

Well I know, but a lawyer can easily argue that community website operators have a duty to monitor their community for suicides the same way that they monitor for all sorts of other things. (I'm sure if I posted a racist rant it would be dealt with harshly.)

What we're talking about is approximately the moral equivalent of blaming the mayor of New York for someone hanging themselves in Central Park.

I tend to agree with you, but you should also realize that many cities have invested a great deal of money in anti-suicide devices - precisely because they recognize that they could be held liable, and because it's just a nice thing to do.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, so don't take this as my particular viewpoint.

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#174

Post by swombat » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:32 PM UTC

run4yourlives wrote: post #172

swombat wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Disrespect is at the heart of much great humour.

Feel free to crack jokes at the next funeral you attend then. I'm sure the other attendees will be highly amused. More to the heart of much great humour is timing.

Is HackerNews a funeral now?

Or are you suggesting that this thread is that hapless teenager's virtual burial place?

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#175

Post by run4yourlives » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:33 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #151

rksprst wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:r5eE7w8sqEQJ:forum.body... http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:Y6Es8cNik58J:forum.body... Be interesting to see if some of those guys get tried with second degree manslaughter or something similar.

This comment is so depressing that I am going to kill myself. I hope you get indicted for second degree manslaughter when I die. (My point phrased less cynically: telling a commenter on a forum to kill himself should not be the same crime as flattening someone with your car.)

Well, it isn't, but it is rather distasteful.

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#176

Post by caveman82 » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:36 PM UTC

Which begs the question of justin.tv's whole raison d'etre:

How the f--- does facilitating self-perpetuated voyeurism (to this particular degree) add value to society?

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#177

Post by run4yourlives » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:38 PM UTC

mikkom wrote: post #141

> The contention that filming and uploading (and even hosting video of) a crime is a crime as well might not be valid, but given the very nature of live broadcasts, the issue becomes more complicated. Is suicide a crime?

No. But in the US you can be held civilly liable for all sorts of things, crime or not.

I think that's what justin.tv is more concerned with.

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#178

Post by run4yourlives » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:43 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #174

run4yourlives wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to crack jokes at the next funeral you attend then. I'm sure the other attendees will be highly amused. More to the heart of much great humour is timing.

Is HackerNews a funeral now? Or are you suggesting that this thread is that hapless teenager's virtual burial place?

I'm suggesting that joking about a person's death needs to be considered against the nature of that death and the current environment.

It's very likely that the family of that kid will happen upon this forum and that post in the next little while, and I think as a community it would be nice if they weren't met with the same idiotic comments that they'll find on the bodybuilding site.

It's the same thing as making jokes about 9/11 victims on 9/12, but there's no hard and fast rule. Such is the case with pretty much every social nicety.

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#179

Post by rksprst » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:48 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #151

rksprst wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:r5eE7w8sqEQJ:forum.body... http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:Y6Es8cNik58J:forum.body... Be interesting to see if some of those guys get tried with second degree manslaughter or something similar.

This comment is so depressing that I am going to kill myself. I hope you get indicted for second degree manslaughter when I die. (My point phrased less cynically: telling a commenter on a forum to kill himself should not be the same crime as flattening someone with your car.)

Watching someone dying and not doing anything about it is different than telling someone to kill himself on a forum. Also, read my comment again. I never said I hoped they get charged with something, I said it would be interesting to see if they do. There will be a public outcry and no doubt some prosecutor is going to try to pin some charges against them.

Re: 19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv

#180

Post by gambling8nt » Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:59 PM UTC

run4yourlives wrote: post #173

gambling8nt wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we're not talking about some tiny community where everyone can be watching for this sort of thing from everyone else. What we're talking about is approximately the moral equivalent of blaming the mayor of New York for someone hanging themselves in Central Park.

But we're not talking about some tiny community where everyone can be watching for this sort of thing from everyone else. Well I know, but a lawyer can easily argue that community website operators have a duty to monitor their community for suicides the same way that they monitor for all sorts of other things. (I'm sure if I posted a racist rant it would be dealt with harshly.) What we're talking about is approximate…

Community website operators do have a duty to monitor for suicides to some extent, just as they have a duty to monitor for other things. But failure to meet perfection in the pursuit of a virtue is not morally the same as a vice. Online communities have moderators in much the same way as real communities have police--they're society's protection against something going wrong with the social contract. When they individually fail, they may (individually or collectively) bear some level of moral responsibility for the matter, but the buck stops there. The only way moral responsibility can find its way to the top is if it is clear that the community in vastly under-equipped to deal with such problems to begin with, and there is an expectation that such things will be actively prevented within the social contract. When a murder or suicide takes place in a physical town, neither the city (as a political unit) nor the mayor is personally morally responsible; a virtual town is no different.

I understand that you aren't necessarily saying that you entirely believe the views you're espousing; any debate in a public forum should be as much (if not more so) of a benefit for the observers as it is for the participants. Clearly stating both sides of an argument helps everyone involved understand the precise nature of the issue.