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Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

kjhealey.medium.com

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Re: Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

#71
The thing is, you don't understand that a business needs to stay focused and that has a price. When you buy those solutions, you are paying for the price of staying focused.

If the price for staying focused is $X, and X has a positive business impact and need, like Snowflake or Databricks could.

And it doesn't mean you won't need to spend on HR, developers, management and so on to run your own OSS solution.

It is actually great to give Snowflake and/or Databricks your money. It's a really expensive service, with a huge markup. That I understand.

But the alternative doesn't look good at all. A company is better staying focused.

Also, if the company sees that it expends a considerable amount of its budget in Snowflake/Databricks, they'll find solutions, that could be negotiating with them, figuring out how to optimize their use etc.

I've worked and seen many companies optimizing their cost structure and run away from Datadog/Newrelic, Snowflake/Databricks and just fail miserably.

The alternatives made developers simply use it less, and also spend more time to do the same that they did.

They even sometimes call it successful, execs point out the money saved, but they don't see the subjective part: developers being less efficient, wasting their time with BS.

There's a long tail of costs related to inefficient systems, it's wasting developer hours, that you need to manage, hire, train...

Not to forget the burden that it is to fire or make people redundant, companies end up losing so much of their culture and soul doing such things. And this is what you need to typically do if you assume those expenses of running things for yourself.

The ideal company are platforms that pays for many SaaS and stay focused on its core business, if it can make money, great!

There is so much literature on cost optimization in business in general, stuff that have been studied for over a century. If people would read on that, they wouldn't be repeating such nonsense as this article.

Also, the article says that you are OVERPAYING for it if you aren't a Fortune 100. It's much more like the opposite, if you have a small company with a small amount of data, it's very likely that Snowflake or Databricks won't cost you that much.

Based also on the other comments on HN, I can only conclude that this is one of those articles that is so full of mistakes and plainly wrong, that there isn't even a real debate over here, just people saying how wrong it is.

Re: Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We still see companies claim to have vast amounts of data, but in reality they are talking about less than a TB of data, frequently just a few 100GB. When you operate at that scale, just chuck your data into whatever database you're comfortable with and do SQL queries, it's fine. I did some work with a company that talked about their “big data”, bragged about their data lake, and made grandiose statements about how…

Remember some industries are perversely incentivized to drive up costs because profits are limited as a percentage of total cost.

Could you please provide examples of that kind of industries?

Re: Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

#74

I work as a solution architect at a consulting firm that builds analytical data platforms for customers. Our company has a partnership with Snowflake, which means all the solutions we build are pushed to use Snowflake. Their sales strategy is very Oracle-like and at least in my circles many Snowflake sales employees are ex-Oracle. This means our sales and Snowflake sales are the best of friends. Formally they'll deny…

"Snowflake Inc. was founded in July 2012...by three data warehousing experts: Benoît Dageville, Thierry Cruanes and Marcin Żukowski. Dageville and Cruanes previously worked as data architects at Oracle Corporation... "

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowflake_Inc.#History

Re: Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember some industries are perversely incentivized to drive up costs because profits are limited as a percentage of total cost.

Could you please provide examples of that kind of industries?

Health insurance is the example that comes to mind.

Re: Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

context matters. you’re calling it an organization, that alone typically indicates a larger scale, in which supporting something internal might be feasible. or at least it is a term used by those that have been there. you’re also referencing politics, which, again, that’s highly suggestive of a specific type of experience. experience within scale if not at scale. please don’t mistake my intent to be that open source…

I think you are vastly under-estimating the amount of cost/manpower needed for snowflake and cloud based solutions (they are anything but turn-key and have a lot of churn). There are cases for both but it's not as simple as open source = hire and cloud = no people needed. With Snowflake you are paying for not only the development of the product, the hosting of it, the engineers to run it, but also the sales, marketin…

always fun when folks make assumptions.

> With Snowflake you are paying for not only the development of the product, the hosting of it, the engineers to run it, but also the sales, marketing, and management behind it.

and you can run the numbers to determine if the cost of ownership offsets headcount. what your dollar goes to isn’t part of that formula. only what your dollar gets you.

> But on top of all that you probably need to hire people to implement and maintain a solution utilizing it for your organization.

that is also a given. you would need at least as many people to implement analytics on top of the homebrew data warehouse, in addition to headcount to run the warehouse itself.

you seem to want to make this out to be vastly different spend amounts. it can be. sometimes it is, sometimes it is not, and the direction can vary.

Re: Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

#77

I think most companies don't understand a large part of the Databricks offering and it should be used by way more organizations. Disclaimer: I was a Databricks user for 6 years and now work at Databricks. Yea, you can create your own Spark deployment, but it will run much slower than the Databricks Runtime (DBR) or the Databricks proprietary Spark Runtime (Photon). Computations that run slower cause you to have a lar…

> Are you going to build a deep learning model to make read/writes faster like Databricks predictive I/O?

It makes sense for Databricks to do this because they're building a product that needs to work for a high cardinality of datasets. Using a DNN for that is defensible because the input shapes are practically infinite. But for individual orgs, it seems much more likely that simple heuristics-driven access pattern optimizations can be done without throwing ML at the problem (though I'll say the predictive IO concept is a cool one, I've done similar ML work for network traffic QoS).

> I've seen lots of DIY data platforms. They're horrible to work with and I can assure you that the code does not write itself.

This one made me scratch my head a bit, because I have seen many DIY platforms as well over a 20 year career. Most of them have been amazing to work with. The code didn't write itself of course, but maintenance burdens were low and specialization/expertise within the org was high as a result. On top of that, I didn't need to argue with an AE about rising costs on a per-annum basis whenever renewal time comes around.

I point this out not in the service of coloring your observations as wrong or misguided, but to highlight that there's going to be a spectrum of varied lived experiences people have with the build-vs-buy conundrum. I expect we'll never see genuine consensus on this issue as a result of that variance (and maybe we don't have to).

Re: Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This right here is exactly why Snowflake is a good fit for my org.: we could pay someone's salary to install, maintain, and upgrade some open source alternative (and the VPS to run it), or we could just pay for Snowflake and stop wasting engineering's time on the Data Science's team's stuff, which frees them up to move faster on the core platform features bringing in the big bucks. The cost problem really is out of…

Here was my situation. Occasional queries. Over a couple petabyte of data. Customer facing so response in seconds per SLA but > 95 percent of the time the warehouse isn’t running. Cached queries from within 24 hours which don’t require the warehouse to even spin up. Our snowflake costs were significantly less than an FTE. Would that potentially be a situation which “running your own” doesn’t make sense?

If you have petabytes of data, I don't think this article is talking about your use case.

Re: Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

#79
post #3

Which use cases cannot do without Snowflake or Databricks?

Any typical analytics use case, where a single dataset (think a single table) is less than 2TB and the total data size is less than 10-20 TB in the organization. If that's you, you very likely don't need Snowflake and definitely not Databricks. An RDBMS would suffice, I recommend Postgres. These sizes are just my thumb rules. Your mileage may vary. I have people in my network use Snowflake with a total data size of 5…

> I have people in my network use Snowflake with a total data size of 50GB!!! It makes my blood boil.

I keep a whole bunch of small-ish datasets in Snowflake because it means I don't have to do all the work to janitor my own postgres install. I go with the db someone else maintains for me that I have, not the one that I wish I had.

Re: Most companies do not need Snowflake or Databricks

#80
> charging their customers for Ferraris

I've seen this sort of analogy before and I don't think it's the right one here: if I get a Ferrari, I know _exactly_ what I'm getting. I'm getting a really fast, really beautiful car.

I'm not too familiar with Snowflake, but I've suffered under Databricks on and off for about a decade now, and as far as I can tell, it's just a more expensive, closed way to do what I could do a lot faster and a lot easier if I didn't have to work around the obstacles that Databricks puts in my way that don't have any value other than being something that Databricks can charge my employer a ton of money for putting in my way.

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