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Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

arunraghavan.net

131–140 of 241 posts

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very strange that this is your experience, because IME as an Indian who has to apply for Schengen visas 4-5 times a year it's actually easier to get a visa for tourism than to attend a conference or for business. You need to supply fewer documents for a tourist visa, there's lesser scrutiny, and in many countries you're more likely to get a longer-duration visa (6 months rather than exact duration) for tourism than f…

Very interesting to know, thanks. Let me then ask: if getting a tourist visa is simpler, is there any problem in asking for a tourist visa even if your intention is attending a conference?

In addition to the legality issues that others have brought up, I have been asked questions about the details of my trip, which might be intended to weed out people doing the sort of thing you're asking about.

"Which hotel are you staying at?"

"Do you have an itinerary? Can I see it?"

"Why are you coming here?" (With a weird intonation of something like, why would anyone come here to vacation? It's so boring here!")

"What do you plan on doing while you're here?"

"Are you meeting anyone?"

"How do you plan to get back?"

Etc.

I think more often than not, the people asking probably don't even care about what your actual answer is, but want to see how you react to those questions, and if the answers make basic logical sense. I.e. "I'm vacationing for 2 weeks, but don't have a hotel.", or "I'm meeting friends and family at my vacation house, but I have never been here before."

A person might not remember the address of their hotel for example, but they'll be able to give a general description without freaking out, "It's a Hilton in Albany, I don't remember which." I would imagine that they're trying to distinguish between the natural nervousness that people have with interacting with border guards, vs people who are trying to do various illegal activities.

As a fun little sidenote:

I actually got tripped up by a guard one time because he asked a weirdly phrased question, "Is this your vehicle?" I took that to mean, "Is this vehicle stolen?", so I told him "Yes, it is mine." (...because I had paid to rent it). He asked why the plates didn't match my drivers license. I explained that it was a rental, and he got very angry and said, "Well I guess it isn't YOURS then, huh!?"

I didn't realize you could answer "Rental" to strictly Yes or No question! It was such a weird way of phrasing the question, because if I were to say, "No, this isn't my vehicle." the logical follow-up question would have been, "Why are you driving someone else's vehicle? Where are they? Why aren't they driving it!?"

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is there any problem in asking for a tourist visa even if your intention is attending a conference? In the U.S.A., lying on a government form is illegal, https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001 . I can't imagine other countries treating that differently.

Is it necessarily lying? If you go to a conference for a hobby that's tourism, right?

Generally, when you apply for a visa, there's documentation guiding you towards the correct type of visa based on purpose of visit. Everything I've seen buckets conferences under "business visa".

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#133
post #81
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general (it's complicated and it's not as simple as have a video camera in every session) tech conferences are doing a pretty good job of getting session content online these days. And, yes, Apple invests at least as much as anyone. It's not really a replacement for attending a conference live but it's a mostly inexpensive (money and time) way to get exposed to a lot of the formal content of a conference.

> It's not really a replacement for attending a conference live but it's a mostly inexpensive (money and time) way to get exposed to a lot of the formal content of a conference. This is something that has troubled me about in-person conferences for a while: they are inegalitarian. If they’re not really about the content, the only people who get the true benefit are those already privileged enough to be able to attend…

This is a race to the bottom.

We shouldn’t throw out something beneficial because it’s not perfect — and doing so has already drastically degraded our societies.

Edit:

Personal anecdote — smaller academic conferences being cheap means that you actually get a mix of people. Most of the cost is travel and lodging ($150 for a week conference ticket). So you get a few more corporate people at them than you’d expect.

You can argue it’s classist, and it is, but society will always have a class system (eg, check out Russia and China at any point in time) — our question should then be “what is the most egalitarian system of classes we can have?”

I would suggest you get that with two ideas:

- your class is the log of your net worth

- there are affordable tickets to the structures of cultural power, eg conferences

I know that soil ecology and human sociology aren’t identical, but it might be worth considering why we don’t want to till soil too often [1] and why people might therefore prefer systems where there’s some cultural continuity — even at the expense of perfect meritocracy.

[1] - https://crops.extension.iastate.edu/encyclopedia/frequent-ti...

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#135
post #128

Here is something conferences can do: run the conference in a visa-easy country. These usually happen to be: 1. Cheap and 2. Welcoming because they need the conference economic activity. Of course this is unlikely to happen because the companies running these conferences are mostly based in the EU/USA/UK and would not bother with the inconvenience.

Author of the post here.

Logistically, it's a _lot_ harder for a person/team to organise a conference in a location they don't live in. There's logistics of venue, payments to vendors if you're organising food/travel/hotels, you might have volunteers for registration, information, etc. and it's easiest to find those in your local community. And finances across borders are anothe huge wrinkle.

It's not impossible, but certainly adds significant complexity.

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#137
If you intend your conference to be “international” in any sense, do not hold it in the United States (I am a U.S. citizen). Here is just one example for why: https://daniel.haxx.se/us-visa.html

The U.S. makes it extremely difficult to visit, routinely denying visas to all kinds of people with no explanation.

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#138
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have paid to register for your conference, it’s your duty to write those letters. I doubt people having speaking slots at the conference will just skip out to go vacation. It’s not like they can’t vacation after the talk. More likely that they just didn’t get the visa because European visa processes, while better than US ones, are just slow.

It's not his duty to do anything, and he's explicitly saying people have accepted speaking slots then not shown up so your doubts are unfounded. Have you never attended a conference where there is a last-minute change in a speaker or talk? Theirs is not the first time I've heard of that happening, either.

Have you never attended a conference where a speaker was not from a developing country but didn't bother to show up anyway? I had

I say charge more, take higher deposits if needed but be more hands on with all speakers (not discriminating against "global south"): get their precise arrival info, always be in touch about their status, meet at the airport, organize their accommodation, etc. So they have no chance to escape your hospitality

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#139

There is another side to this. Whenever I have organized conferences, I end up receiving lots of requests for invitation letters, typically from researchers in India, for Visa purposes. I absolutely understand this, and I have always done my best to accommodate these requests. But this is time-consuming, and it is very annoying when those researchers (who are sometimes also scheduled to speak) never show up, and neve…

If they have paid to register for your conference, it’s your duty to write those letters. I doubt people having speaking slots at the conference will just skip out to go vacation. It’s not like they can’t vacation after the talk. More likely that they just didn’t get the visa because European visa processes, while better than US ones, are just slow.

> If they have paid to register for your conference, it’s your duty to write those letters.

I should probably have made it clear that I'm talking about conferences without registration fees.

Re: Conferences are inadvertently excluding many attendees from foreign countries

#140
post #13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side note: EU is planning to retaliate, and just as US is requiring ESTA from EU citizens traveling to US, in 2024 EU will start to require a similar application caller ETIAS, from US citizens traveling to EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Travel_Information_an...

People on twitter seems to think this is the -end- of American tourism for Europe, funny how just bringing the same standards suddenly makes us a no-visiting place. FFS

It's a power game. Presumably less Americans visit places that require visas since there are enough places that don't. So Americans may not want to go to Europe as much. Currently plenty of European tourists go to America, so maybe that doesn't bother them as much. Pick a third world country like Jamaica. Americans can go there visa free, and Jamaica wants Americans to continue to come, so it stays visa free. However Jamaicans require Visas to go to the US, because the US had decided that it doesn't need to encourage Jamaicans to come to the US, enough already do.
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